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adatesman
Jun 29, 2009, 6:49 PM
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gimmeslack
Jun 30, 2009, 2:20 PM
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I'll be the first to stir the pot...
I wonder if the industry can tolerate a serious lawsuit? I would imagine it's very easy to have folks come out of the woodwork to accuse anybody's brand of gear for causing grievous harm...
'jes thinking out loud, eh?
Frankly I wish CCH would just hire someone to get their QC sorted out and we could move on...
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rtwilli4
Jun 30, 2009, 2:47 PM
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gimmeslack wrote: I'll be the first to stir the pot... I wonder if the industry can tolerate a serious lawsuit? I would imagine it's very easy to have folks come out of the woodwork to accuse anybody's brand of gear for causing grievous harm... 'jes thinking out loud, eh? Frankly I wish CCH would just hire someone to get their QC sorted out and we could move on...
I kind of agree. As disappointed as I am that a climbing company that was loved by so many people has let us down, I'm not sure that legal action is the way to go. Of course I have no idea what Aric is planning and given all of his work, he should be talking to everyone he can about what the next step and it seems like that is what he is doing. Let's not forget that he is doing this on his own time... for all of us lazy bastards who just sit at our computers and run our mouths.
I wish CCH could get their shit together too, and maybe they will. Maybe they will sell out, maybe this, maybe that... at this point though it is an issue of trust and ethics. I really, really, REALLY want to buy aliens every time I see people selling them, and they have been up a lot lately. BUT, I just don't feel that I can support a company that has not done everything in it's power to do the right thing.
It's a sad situation but the only way to fix it is for people to spend their time and money figuring out what to do next.
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adatesman
Jun 30, 2009, 2:52 PM
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wonderwoman
Jun 30, 2009, 3:36 PM
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adatesman wrote: No one knows Pinsandbones then? I'd have dropped him a PM but he hasn't been on RC in months. I think I may have a PM or two from people from back when the recent mess started, but haven't had time to go through the pile looking for them yet. Anyway, the meeting's in 10 minutes so I guess it doesn't matter at this point. If she ends up wanting it I'll bump the thread and do a bunch more digging. Oh, she's here. Guess I'll finish this in a bit. -a.
Maybe try to contact this user who seems to know him:
http://www.rockclimbing.com/...post=1604225#1604225
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adatesman
Jun 30, 2009, 4:27 PM
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roy_hinkley_jr
Jun 30, 2009, 5:00 PM
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If it looks like a witch hunt and smells like a witch hunt...let's pretend it isn't. Aric, you keep claiming you don't have a grudge. Then you post nonsense like this requesting accident victims involved with a product that was already recalled. If you had at least specified you wanted first hand accounts of products outside of the recall time frame, you would sound credible. This appears to be nothing but a vendetta that will do more harm than good for climbers by bringing bureaucrats into an area they aren't capable of understanding.
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healyje
Jun 30, 2009, 5:10 PM
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roy_hinkley_jr wrote: If it looks like a witch hunt and smells like a witch hunt...let's pretend it isn't. Aric, you keep claiming you don't have a grudge. Then you post nonsense like this requesting accident victims involved with a product that was already recalled. If you had at least specified you wanted first hand accounts of products outside of the recall time frame, you would sound credible. This appears to be nothing but a vendetta that will do more harm than good for climbers by bringing bureaucrats into an area they aren't capable of understanding.
We already have failures outside the recall period - both pre and post, and non-recalled cams. Just what level of failure is acceptable to you Roy?
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adatesman
Jun 30, 2009, 5:12 PM
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IsayAutumn
Jun 30, 2009, 5:25 PM
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I can understand where Roy is coming from. What I don't understand is why you are taking it upon yourself to seek out these alleged accident victims. You gave your information to the sources that can look into it. What further interest do you have in this? You said yourself that this is all at your own time and expense. Going further makes it look like you are desperate to find more dirt on CCH. What's the deal?
It does have the vague character of a witch hunt, so I don't know why you seem surprised that you have people like Roy chiming in.
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adatesman
Jun 30, 2009, 5:39 PM
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wonderwoman
Jun 30, 2009, 5:49 PM
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As a climber, I am extremely concerned that a product that I rely on has failed and that people have gotten hurt. What concerns me most is that this particular piece of gear that adatesmen is trying to track down failed outside of the recall period. I do not know of this happening with other climbing manufacturers or products, and would like to get to the bottom of this. None of my aliens are stamped within the recall period, and I certainly do not want to be the next pinsandneedles. I don't want this to happen to anybody else, either.
I have not yet taken the aliens off my rack, but am eyeing them with suspicion more and more. I do fall on my gear, and would like to think that my aliens would hold when I need them to hold. The more that comes to light from this, the better.
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IsayAutumn
Jun 30, 2009, 5:53 PM
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I agree with your sentiment, wonderwoman. The numbers that Aric posted after his testing were enough for me to make a decision on the reliability of Aliens. Each climber will have to come to her own decision, I suppose. If this helps you come to yours, then maybe it's worth it.
There's just something about it that seems...I dunno. The whole thing, from the very first thread, has seemed a little shady, is all. Just a gut feeling, and it's probably wrong. After all, the test results did help me make a decision about a product I was considering purchasing, so I guess I should be thankful for that.
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adatesman
Jun 30, 2009, 5:54 PM
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wonderwoman
Jun 30, 2009, 5:59 PM
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I'd suggest resurrecting the thread to see if you get any updates. That may send an email to them, alerting them that someone has responded to their thread. At least that's how it works with my account. I get an email if someone responds to my post, but not when someone sends me a PM. Want to give that a shot?
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josephgdawson
Jun 30, 2009, 6:01 PM
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roy_hinkley_jr wrote: ... will do more harm than good for climbers by bringing bureaucrats into an area they aren't capable of understanding.
I fully agree with this sentiment.
Testing and breaking Aliens and releasing the information to the public is a service to the climbing community.
A concerted effort to get the government involved could very well boomerang and do great damage to the climbing community in the long run. That is unnecessary and shows very poor judgment. Let the free market take care of the problem. Many people have already stopped buying Aliens and Metolius has come out with a line of cams that are very similar to Aliens.
Aric, as far as your personal reputation goes, I think shifting from testing cams to becoming some sort of activist damages it. I do not trust people with an agenda.
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shoo
Jun 30, 2009, 6:05 PM
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roy_hinkley_jr wrote: If it looks like a witch hunt and smells like a witch hunt...let's pretend it isn't.
Weight of alien cams: 66-139 grams
Weight of a mallard duck: 850-1500 grams
Case solved.
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drector
Jun 30, 2009, 6:19 PM
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Aric,
Clearly, there is an agenda here because without one, you would have not done the tests and not called any agency about this. I know that your agenda might be to save the lives of climbers using sh*t equipment that is going to get them killed. in this case, I like your agenda.
To clarify things, can you state why you contacted official bodies in regards to this matter instead of distributing the information then doing nothing else? What did you hope to accomplish getting CPSC or UIAA or anyone else involved?
If you are sick and tired of it, just stop working on it and stop posting about it. It's that simple.
Dave
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chilli
Jun 30, 2009, 6:36 PM
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josephgdawson wrote: Testing and breaking Aliens and releasing the information to the public is a service to the climbing community. A concerted effort to get the government involved could very well boomerang and do great damage to the climbing community in the long run...
i gotta agree a bit here. or at least say that i'm worried. maybe it's because i'm a bit ignorant about things like this, but it seems to me that when it comes to the consequences of government involvement and subsequent litigation in other arenas of recreational activity a can of worms was opened that was damaging at best. i hope this is just a flash in the pan situation and not a harbinger.
aric, i've always appreciated your factual presentation and thorough threads in the lab and they've certainly affected my position on aliens; but i must admit i too am a bit concerned about the possible loss of objectivity as things proceed. edit to add clarification: i think it's probably good that someone took initiative to really test aliens and bring it to the attention of the appropriate authorities, but i just have to hope this doesn't backfire
so i guess it begs the question, where do things go from here?
gov't may take some action against CCH? - fine, they screwed themselves with QC anyway. but does that open the door to other legal action? for the sake of our community, i hope not.
(This post was edited by chilli on Jun 30, 2009, 6:47 PM)
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bigjonnyc
Jun 30, 2009, 6:50 PM
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drector wrote: Aric, Clearly, there is an agenda here because without one, you would have not done the tests and not called any agency about this. I know that your agenda might be to save the lives of climbers using sh*t equipment that is going to get them killed. in this case, I like your agenda. To clarify things, can you state why you contacted official bodies in regards to this matter instead of distributing the information then doing nothing else? What did you hope to accomplish getting CPSC or UIAA or anyone else involved? If you are sick and tired of it, just stop working on it and stop posting about it. It's that simple. Dave
Aric has made it clear on this forum that he's willing to use his tensile testing and other equipment to test suspect gear. If he had not done his specific testing of Aliens, or had only limited data on the matter, then maybe it would have been okay to just convey the information he had to this forum and leave it at that. However, after finding concrete empirical evidence that there is in fact a serious safety issue with CCH's equipment, outside the scope of any recall that they may have done, not reporting it to the authorities would have been negligent at best.
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adatesman
Jun 30, 2009, 6:51 PM
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shoo
Jun 30, 2009, 6:57 PM
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Honestly, I would ideally like this issue taken up in the major climbing media outlets rather than the law approach.
If Climbing Mag or Urban Climber reported on this, you would likely see the invisible hand do some mighty quick work.
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adatesman
Jun 30, 2009, 7:05 PM
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gimmeslack
Jun 30, 2009, 7:18 PM
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adatesman wrote: shoo wrote: Honestly, I would ideally like this issue taken up in the major climbing media outlets rather than the law approach. If Climbing Mag or Urban Climber reported on this, you would likely see the invisible hand do some mighty quick work. I doubt that sort of thing would happen with R&I or Climbing, as it's kind of a biting the hand that feeds you sort of thing. If one of them were to do this kind of testing and made the results public the ad revenue would disappear immediately. Not such an issue with CCH I think (I don't recall ever seeing an ad for them), but the other manufacturers might get grumpy about it.
I hope you don't really believe that!
Are you suggesting that a reputable mag would avoid something as huge as potentially lethal QC failures to protect their ad revenue? Frankly, I think that's inappropriate speculation. Whether they think they either 1) have sufficient data or 2) sufficient expertise, to make such a call, is a different matter.
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adatesman
Jun 30, 2009, 7:41 PM
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