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adamvonce
May 8, 2007, 9:26 PM
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I was working with my teacher the other day at school on our wall on some emergency situations. We started talking about different ways to ascend the rope with limited gear. We tried many different combinations, i.e. two prussics, a GriGri and a prussic. I started to think about whether I could use my ATC Guide in autoblocking mode as an emergency ascender. I figure that if i clipped in to the extra anchoring hole, oriented it with the rope above me below the slack (to make it autoblock) and clipped this in with a locker it would work as an ascender. Is this kosher? Has anyone tried this, and if so any suggestions? Any other ideas about how to rig this device to ascend a rope? Is this not safe at all? (Of cousre i would try it first on the ground or on a top rope belay) Thanks a lot for your input.
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paulraphael
May 8, 2007, 9:39 PM
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Yes, you can do it. I haven't done it with the guide, but I have with a reverso and with a B-52.
I wouldn't bother unless it's your last resort... it's a pain. It's more secure than a friction knot, but more awkward and I found it much slower.
I now use the piece of cord that I use to back up raps, and the sling that's permanently on my harness for anchoring at rap stations. these make kleimheists for a harness tie-in and a foot loop. I keep the rap device loose on the rope as I go up. It doesn't get in the way, and makes the transition to lowering quick and easy. It's also easy to tie off with a mule if you need to stop and take care of something.
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timm
May 8, 2007, 9:44 PM
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You've got the right idea. I've fooled around with this idea with an ATC Guide as well as a Reverso configured as you've described. It's not the easiest thing to pull slack thru device but if you have limited gear and it's all you got it will get you up the rope (although slowly and with alot o effort).
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bobruef
May 8, 2007, 10:49 PM
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paulraphael wrote: I wouldn't bother unless it's your last resort... it's a pain. It's more secure than a friction knot, but more awkward and I found it much slower.
I'll third that.
It's WAY more difficult than just using a couple of prussics.
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zuegma
May 8, 2007, 11:47 PM
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its actaully not that hard if you have a cordolette or prussic and long sling. first you tie a friction knot at about forehead height, and make a loop for you foot. then you put the guide in autoblock mode on your harness. then you step in the footloop stand and pull the slack through the guide, then raise the friction knot and repeat, with a little practice i find it to be much faster and easier than using 2 friction knots.
also if you know your going to have to come back down, which is the case in most rescue situations, you can prerig the guide and just rap back down. and it is a lot easier to get cak down with a guide than with prussics.
i could probably post some pictures of this if you can't find them anywhere else
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paulraphael
May 8, 2007, 11:59 PM
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zuegma wrote: i also if you know your going to have to come back down, which is the case in most rescue situations, you can prerig the guide and just rap back down. and it is a lo
this is actually one of the misgivings i have about using an autoblock to ascend. you can use it to descend again, but it has to be rigged differently than you rig it for ascending. getting it out of autoblock mode and into rap mode, without losing your main tie-in, takes a lot of extra messing around. if it's a rescue situation, you really don't need anything else to waste your time and attention, especially if it's something that could really mess you up ... like untying yourself by mistake because you're flustered.
That's why I like to just leave the rap device on the rope, but not use it to ascend. it's just there for when you need it.
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adamvonce
May 9, 2007, 12:06 AM
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I understand how it could be difficult to slide up the rope. I want to try it in tandem with a GriGri as well as a prussic. I want to fool around with these set ups and see how they work. Thanks for your assurances and advice.
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zuegma
May 9, 2007, 12:13 AM
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i just finsihed taking a rescue course and i honestly didnt find it that hard. if you hava sling though your belay loop and clipped to the guide then all you have to do is wieght eh friction knot take off the carabiner holding it in autoblock and then engage the friction autoblock on your harness so you can go hands free
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j_ung
May 9, 2007, 12:44 PM
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bobruef wrote: paulraphael wrote: I wouldn't bother unless it's your last resort... it's a pain. It's more secure than a friction knot, but more awkward and I found it much slower. I'll third that. It's WAY more difficult than just using a couple of prussics.
I'm gonna go ahead and respectfully disagree. I've used it that way and found it to be fast, easy and, like using a Gri-gri, I could rest at any time I wanted. The rope itself might be a variable. If it's thick and fuzzy, it might be more difficult. But IMO, the biggest hassle comes when you have to switch back to rappel mode. And if you've practiced the load transfer, that's fairly quick and easy, too.
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coolcat83
May 9, 2007, 12:49 PM
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I find it pretty easy to ascend with an atc guide; I just use the atc on my harness and a tibloc or something else above it with a foot loop. Remember to have the webbing or whatever from the upper ascender (whatever it is) also clip into your harness for safety if possible.
To switch to descend with the atc guide I just weight the foot then clip the autoblock biner (that becomes the belay/rap biner) into my belay loop first, and then I unclip the biner that is through the anchor hole in the guide. That way the guide is always clipped in and functional, I also tie a munter mule beforehand, or in a real time crunch or if unable to do so I make a foot clove with the rope or several wraps. This way when I re-weight the guide I’m hands free to take off the tibloc (or other method) from the top. Just make sure when you are ready to make the switch the upper ascender isn't too far away so you can sit in the harness.
With the munter mule you have a backup should the upper ascender pop or just to ease the transition so you can use the cord from the upper (if u use a prussic) to tie a rap backup and hang hands free.
If you don't have an extra biner to put two through the atc (to transition) you have to get creative. something along the lines of tying some sort of release hitch with the rope through the atc then transfer the biner while hanging on that and the top ascender. Then when you are hooked up to the atc in rap mode release the hitch and weight the atc. I can post pics, it’s not ideal and a bit of a cluster f, but if you want to maintain two points on the rope it works in a pinch.
(This post was edited by coolcat83 on May 9, 2007, 12:53 PM)
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bobruef
May 9, 2007, 2:26 PM
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j_ung wrote: bobruef wrote: paulraphael wrote: I wouldn't bother unless it's your last resort... it's a pain. It's more secure than a friction knot, but more awkward and I found it much slower. I'll third that. It's WAY more difficult than just using a couple of prussics. I'm gonna go ahead and respectfully disagree. I've used it that way and found it to be fast, easy and, like using a Gri-gri, I could rest at any time I wanted. The rope itself might be a variable. If it's thick and fuzzy, it might be more difficult. But IMO, the biggest hassle comes when you have to switch back to rappel mode. And if you've practiced the load transfer, that's fairly quick and easy, too.
Maybe I'll fiddle around w/ it a little more, and see if I can't get it to work better. It could be my 10.3 and 10.5 ropes.
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ja1484
May 9, 2007, 2:52 PM
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j_ung wrote: bobruef wrote: paulraphael wrote: I wouldn't bother unless it's your last resort... it's a pain. It's more secure than a friction knot, but more awkward and I found it much slower. I'll third that. It's WAY more difficult than just using a couple of prussics. I'm gonna go ahead and respectfully disagree. I've used it that way and found it to be fast, easy and, like using a Gri-gri, I could rest at any time I wanted. The rope itself might be a variable. If it's thick and fuzzy, it might be more difficult. But IMO, the biggest hassle comes when you have to switch back to rappel mode. And if you've practiced the load transfer, that's fairly quick and easy, too.
I'm going to disagree with j_ung and fourth the original sentiment - although I prefer Bachmans as the carabiner provides a nice little handle. Just be sure to put plenty of wraps on there - more than you think you'll need.
Anyway, no thanks on ascending with the guide unless I have no other option.
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mtnfr34k
May 10, 2007, 10:43 AM
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Using an ATC or Reverso as your waist ascender, with a double-length sling klemheist above it, is fast, simple, and about as gear-free as possible. One hint - use a smaller locking carabiner connecting the top in autolock mode to your harness (let's call it the "anchor" biner), and a larger locking carabiner as the "brake" biner. If you do, then you'll find changing over from ascend to descend to ascend even simpler:
0. Or Pre-Step 1. Whatever. THIS REQUIRES PRACTICE. Fix a back up line, and tie in short if you need the extra security. You should always be connected to the rope you're ascending/descending. I recommend no more than 2 meters of slack. Use an adjustable clove-hitch or tie new "hard" knots to clip into as you ascend. !!!BE CAREFUL!!!
1. First go ahead and add your autoblock back up from your leg loop to the rope below your device. Make sure it has enough friction. You can now go hands free. !!!BE CAREFUL!!! Make sure your autoblock backup works!! This is another reason why I routinely climb with an autoblock sling "pre-rigged" and girth-hitched to my leg loop.
2. Step up into your foot prussik, and unlock the brake biner, clip it into your belay loop, and lock it down again. !!!!BE CAREFUL!!! The brake biner must never be removed from the belay device! Because the brake biner is longer than the anchor biner, there will still be enough space for the autolock function to continue. Plus, your autoblock backup should be functioning. You can keep standing, or sit down for a rest...
3. Stand up in your foot loop, unlock the anchor biner, and remove it from your harness. Since you already tied a autoblock backup in step 2, and clipped your brake biner in step 2, you should be safe.
This is a routine step in the rock rescue skill test at the AMGA. With a little bit of practice, you'll find that you can ascend the rope fairly quickly. 11mm ropes in an ATC Guide or Petzl Reverso are tight fits and are a lot more work to pull through the device than a 10mm (word to the wise).
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j_ung
May 10, 2007, 1:51 PM
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That's the same as ascending with the ATC Guide, except the device is a Kong Gi-gi. This is the technique I'm talking about when I say using the ATC Guide is my preferred non-mechanical rope ascending method. Thanks for posting the picture! 
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