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kagunkie
Aug 26, 2001, 4:16 AM
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Heres a page to look at for some good info. on carabiners. Go to the bottom of the page and click on essential knowlage about carabiners in general.
http://www.petzl.com/FRENG/frcarabiners/carabinerframe.html
[ This Message was edited by: kagunkie on 2001-08-29 05:49 ]
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kagunkie
Aug 28, 2001, 5:49 AM
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Theres alot of excellent info on this site Im supprised nobody has responded with any feedback.
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pianomahnn
Aug 28, 2001, 7:48 AM
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UGH!! The ball locks are HORRIBLE. They get all stuck, and dirty, and ewwwww. No good. BUT, my girly has the Spirits, and they are very nice.
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kagunkie
Aug 28, 2001, 3:19 PM
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Go to the bottom of the page and click on ESSENTIAL KNOWLAGE ABOUT CARIBINERS IN GENERAL. Im not looking for feedback on biner designs. The page Im referring to gives info on HOW TO USE CARIBINERS. Take a look.
[ This Message was edited by: kagunkie on 2001-08-28 17:33 ]
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wigglestick
Aug 28, 2001, 3:24 PM
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After looking at the information I realized that petzl doesn't make any wire gate biners which is supposed to at least partially help the problems encountered in figures 8 & 10. I wonder if they know something?
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paulc
Aug 28, 2001, 6:30 PM
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I would second the motion that Ball locks are terrible, very hard to open in a hurry, I do however like the DMM autolock.
On the fact that Petzl doesn't have a wire gate biner, I would think that is due to patent issues, but haven't really looked into it. I know that DMM got around some patent issues with their latest wiregate, by using a twisted gate and a ball bearing to get a combination wiregate with notchless nose.
Paul
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kagunkie
Aug 29, 2001, 12:30 AM
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You guys are missing the point! this thread was meant to inform people on the correct way to use carabiners. If after thirty years of climbing I found the web page mentiond above informative and enlightening why isnt anyone els? I dont understand why nobody wants to learn something that could save your or your partners life! Do all these people know these important facts already. WOW!!!!!!
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redpointadventures
Sep 10, 2001, 7:21 PM
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D shaped Caribeners are strongest on the axis, i.e. the longest side with the gate locked(@22KN). In the incorrect, cross loaded, position the caribiner has 1/3 the strength(7KN). With the gate open, less then 1/4 strength not to mention the rope escaping.
Pear shaped Caribiners exhibit more strength overall and tend to orient the rope into the strength. Auto lockers and screw gates are about the same strength rating providing the gate is closed and locked.
Non locking ovals are the weakest (18KN) but are also the lightest. If used in an application that would require a locking caribiner always double up and oppose the gates (36KN).
Other non lockers include:
Straight gates (22KN)
Bent gates (20KN)
Hot wire (22KN)
Although strength ratings are similar, Hot wires exhibit more strength in cross loaded or open positions. Bent gates may make the rope easier to load but can also contribute to rope whip, this is were the rope escapes the caribiner due to the wiping action of the rope in leader falls.
Always receive expert instruction on orienting caribiners on slings, quick draws and anchors. Every situation is different and requires different techniques and equipment. I recommend reading John Long's,Climbing Anchors (A Falcon Guide).
Some common use errors include:
screw gate not closed
gates not opposed
gate open due to sling or gear interference
incorrect sling orientation
tri-axial loading
auto close failure
cross loading
orientated with gate towards the rock
failure to inspect or retire damaged caribiner
Always double check caribiners and anchors and have your partner do the same.
TRAIN HARD CLIMB SAFE
http://www.petzl.com/FRENG/tech/shock.html
[ This Message was edited by: redpointadventures on 2001-09-10 12:37 ]
[ This Message was edited by: redpointadventures on 2001-09-10 12:43 ]
[ This Message was edited by: redpointadventures on 2001-09-10 13:56 ]
[ This Message was edited by: redpointadventures on 2001-09-12 10:14 ]
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broganadams
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Sep 10, 2001, 7:36 PM
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Before you start spouting off about kn's I think that the public should be educated on the amount of force that is being applied to the beiner. I think that people would be amazed at the low numbers. If someone has acual numbers for the average test weight, which is 175lbs. Could they please submit them. What I am getting at is people say all these numbers and beginers are thinking "oh my god will my 16kn beiner hold up?" the answer is sure it will, but that is no excuse for not being educated on the true numbers.
Brogan
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pianomahnn
Sep 10, 2001, 8:07 PM
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1Kn transfers into about 225 pounds.
An Omega Oval <>31kn. Which is about 7000 pounds.
Petzl Attache <>23kn. 5175 pounds.
That is some serious strength. I forgot much of what I learned in highschool physics, so I couldn't give an example of how fast you would have to fall to snap a biner. It is quite fast. And quite long.
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redpointadventures
Sep 10, 2001, 8:12 PM
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Didn't realise I was spouting.
To answer your question concerning forces I would surely confuse just about anyone without a Physics Degree incuding myself. There are to many factors to describe here in what happens say in a real life leader fall such as slack, multi-vectors for each sling and caribiner, %rope stretch, repel device slippage, realitive weights and heights, distance of the fall, calculating the speed of the fall and its tragectory.
Now thats spouting.
You are correct in how the CEN and other orginizations calculate KN or the force created by a fall. A 176 lbs.weight on ten foot fall will not generate more than 5KN or about 2,680 lbs. after rope stretch (impact force). The force is also greater at the caribiner in a factor 1.9 fall (15KN on a single anchor). This is why more than one anchor is needed. Remember this is past the breaking point of an incorrect caribiner placement, and is a controled test that only simulates real life conditions.
http://www.petzl.com/FRENG/tech/shock.html
[ This Message was edited by: redpointadventures on 2001-09-10 13:37 ]
[ This Message was edited by: redpointadventures on 2001-09-10 13:43 ]
[ This Message was edited by: redpointadventures on 2001-09-14 07:49 ]
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broganadams
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Sep 10, 2001, 8:30 PM
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That is exactly what I wanted to see. So when somebody starts to tell you that your caribeiner is not strong enough you can say That it is, because of they way you are placing the load on it it is twice to three time as strong as the regular fall that your lead will take on the average route. You know that your set up is only as strong as your weekest link. That is usually your protection. Ie; nuts, cams, and loose bolts.
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kriso9tails
Sep 10, 2001, 8:39 PM
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They forgot to include 'z' clipping, which is actually a fairly common occurence.
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