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Adan
Jun 25, 2010, 2:17 AM
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From what I read so far in this forum and elsewhere using a redirect above the belay device (clipped in the anchor) to get the rope to pull upwards when the leader falls before the 1st pro is put in, increases the load on the anchor enormously (rope pulls from both sides on the redirect).
This topic was discussed already in lengths in this forum so I would like to avoid getting into that topic again.
Therefore I would like to limit this discussion to not using a redirect.
Means, assuming a lead fall in the anchor (rope pulls downwards) before the first pro is put in (factor 2).
What would be the best belay device in that situation?
Please find attached a picture of a setup using a normal tuber with a carabiner in front of it. What do you think of that option?
This doesn't make a redirect necessary and the brake hand can be pulled down as usual and according to the human reflex.
Thanks for you ideas.
Cheers,
Adan
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Tube factor 2 setup.jpg
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RiverRatMatt
Jun 25, 2010, 2:28 AM
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I don't understand, if the leader falls before he puts the first protection in, he's just going to hit the ground... there's nothing above him that the rope is running through...
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theguy
Jun 25, 2010, 2:31 AM
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RiverRatMatt wrote: I don't understand, if the leader falls before he puts the first protection in, he's just going to hit the ground... there's nothing above him that the rope is running through...
Second or later pitch of multi-pitch climb
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jt512
Jun 25, 2010, 2:36 AM
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RiverRatMatt wrote: I don't understand, if the leader falls before he puts the first protection in, he's just going to hit the ground... there's nothing above him that the rope is running through...
Quoted, for totally classic rc.com posterity.
Jay
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sittingduck
Jun 25, 2010, 2:41 AM
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Looks good!
Is that belay device supposed to be oriented that way? Should the teeth not be on the brake hand side?
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jt512
Jun 25, 2010, 2:46 AM
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Adan wrote: From what I read so far in this forum and elsewhere using a redirect above the belay device (clipped in the anchor) to get the rope to pull upwards when the leader falls before the 1st pro is put in, increases the load on the anchor enormously (rope pulls from both sides on the redirect). This topic was discussed already in lengths in this forum so I would like to avoid getting into that topic again. Therefore I would like to limit this discussion to not using a redirect. Means, assuming a lead fall in the anchor (rope pulls downwards) before the first pro is put in (factor 2). What would be the best belay device in that situation? Please find attached a picture of a setup using a normal tuber with a carabiner in front of it. What do you think of that option? This doesn't make a redirect necessary and the brake hand can be pulled down as usual and according to the human reflex. Thanks for you ideas. Cheers, Adan
I don't think you're going to find too many American climbers who will say that it is generally acceptable to belay the leader directly off the anchor, but if you are going to do it, then, first of all, what possible advantage does this convoluted setup have over simply using a Munter hitch; and, secondly, it doesn't look like it's going to be too easy to feed slack through that set up.
Jay
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Adan
Jun 25, 2010, 2:54 AM
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In reply to: Is that belay device supposed to be oriented that way? Should the teeth not be on the brake hand side?
Yeah generally, but it can be turned either way usually to increase or decrease the braking efficiency of the device (e.g. could lower required hand force to hold the rope).
In reply to: I don't think you're going to find too many American climbers who will say that it is generally acceptable to belay the leader directly off the anchor, but if you are going to do it, then, first of all, what possible advantage does this convoluted setup have over simply using a Munter hitch; and, secondly, it doesn't look like it's going to be too easy to feed slack through that set up.
So you would belay from your belay loop? Or the masterpoint? If masterpoint it makes no difference in the situation of a factor 2 and if in belay loop it is not really good to have a factor 2 pulling down on your harness, is it?
Munter hitch would be a good option, I agree.
And feeding back could be a problem as well that is true...
Any other options?
In reply to: Easiest way to avoid this is to clip one of the pieces of the anchor on your way up and then get something else in soon afterward. As for your pic, I seem to recall seeing a similar using-a-tube-on-an-anchor thing in a Guide-Tricks video a long while back. Never used it, not going to. IIRC it was intended for bringing up seconds, not belaying a leader. Seems to me a decidedly bad idea for lead belay, which is the only way you'd get a FF2 on it.
As i mentioned in my first post. the anchor redirect clipping was discussed several times and increases the load on the anchor a lot, so i would like to not do that!
And i think if you do not do that and even manage to put the first piece in and then fall and the piece comes out, you will have a pull downwards on the belay device, so i think it is important to know how to handle that and in which direction to pull the brake hand etc., especially because the brake hand must hold enormously at such a big fall.
Do you prepare yourself for such a situation? If yes, how?
(This post was edited by Adan on Jun 25, 2010, 3:02 AM)
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majid_sabet
Jun 25, 2010, 3:04 AM
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sittingduck wrote: Looks good! Is that belay device supposed to be oriented that way? Should the teeth not be on the brake hand side?
what do you mean is GOOD?
take a look at his rig. you would be stupid to take FF2 on a piece webbing when forces are pulling form each side of the knot.
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Adan
Jun 25, 2010, 3:07 AM
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majid_sabet wrote: sittingduck wrote: Looks good! Is that belay device supposed to be oriented that way? Should the teeth not be on the brake hand side? what do you mean is GOOD? take a look at his rig. you would be stupid to take FF2 on a piece webbing when forces are pulling form each side of the knot.
okok, before we go into the anchor discussion again....
Assume it would be a proper anchor with a masterpoint, or whatever you consider to be the best.
I was just interested in the belay device (how to hold a factor 2 in the anchor) question.
Thanks....
(This post was edited by Adan on Jun 25, 2010, 3:09 AM)
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jt512
Jun 25, 2010, 3:10 AM
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Adan wrote: So you would belay from your belay loop?
I think that this is one of the toughest calls in climbing: which is more likely to fail in a factor-2 fall: the anchor or the belayer. The fact is that factor-2 falls are rare enough that we have little data on which to base a decision. If the anchor looks bomber and is multidirectional (say, three good bolts), I'll try to redirect the belay through the anchor. In a factor-2 fall, I'll get pulled up, protecting he anchor. If there is any doubt about the anchor, I'll go directly off the belay loop. However, I always wear gloves, I put both hands on the brake side of the rope, and I expect that catching the fall will be painful and take every ounce of strength that I've got.
One danger about redirects, including relying on the first piece above the anchor to act as a redirect, that is poorly appreciated, is that if the redirect (or first piece) fails, the direction of the force on the belayer, and hence the direction that braking will have to be applied will suddenly reverse. Think about it, and ask yourself whether you could hold a fall if you were expecting, and initially felt, an upward pull, and hence braked downward, and then suddenly the direction of pull reversed, and you had to brake upward. Kinda makes you want to stick to single-pitch routes.
Jay
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patto
Jun 25, 2010, 3:15 AM
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Adan wrote: As i mentioned in my first post. the anchor redirect clipping was discussed several times and increases the load on the anchor a lot, so i would like to not do that!
But belaying off the anchor will increase the forces involved as there is so little rope out and no dynamic belay.
The best way to deal with the possibility of a factor 2 fall is to not have one.
The best way to achieve this is to clip the anchor powerpoint AND to have the belayer belay from several metres below the anchor.
This immediately increases the amount of rope available for absorbing the fall AND creates a dynamic belay. These aspects alone are likely to result in significantly less forces on the anchor.
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Adan
Jun 25, 2010, 3:18 AM
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In reply to: I think that this is one of the toughest calls in climbing: which is more likely to fail in a factor-2 fall: the anchor or the belayer. The fact is that factor-2 falls are rare enough that we have little data on which to base a decision. If the anchor looks bomber and is multidirectional (say, three good bolts), I'll try to redirect the belay through the anchor. In a factor-2 fall, I'll get pulled up, protecting he anchor. If there is any doubt about the anchor, I'll go directly off the belay loop. However, I always wear gloves, I put both hands on the brake side of the rope, and I expect that catching the fall will be painful and take every ounce of strength that I've got.
hmmm...why would you put so much more force on the anchor if you redirecting? Wouldn't a munter hitch setup or the one in my picture be better?
Less force on anchor. prepared for putting the brake hand in the right direction with appropriate braking efficiency of the belay device?
Besides at a factor 2 fall upwards, you will be pulled upwards A LOT. I think the risk of hurting yourself and/or loosing control of the brake hand is farely high (in a factor 2 situation).
Please don't take this as an offence of how you would do it. I just want to discuss the pros and cons of it and would like to hear your view!
In reply to: One danger about redirects, including relying on the first piece above the anchor to act as a redirect, that is poorly appreciated, is that if the redirect (or first piece) fails, the direction of the force on the belayer, and hence the direction that braking will have to be applied will suddenly reverse. Think about it, and ask yourself whether you could hold a fall if you were expecting, and initially felt, an upward pull, and hence braked downward, and then suddenly the direction of pull reversed, and you had to brake upward. Kinda makes you want to stick to single-pitch routes.
that is exaclty what i meant. I dont think in that case people are prepared to hold a factor 2 fall downwards. Even if you are prepared for a factor 2 fall it is a great effor to hold it.....
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Adan
Jun 25, 2010, 3:25 AM
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In reply to: The best way to achieve this is to clip the anchor powerpoint AND to have the belayer belay from several metres below the anchor.
hmmm.. that would be an option...But i think the increasing force on the anchor when redirecting is a bout 70%. That is quite a lot.
Is it practical to hand so far below the anchor?
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adatesman
Jun 25, 2010, 3:55 AM
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whipper
Jun 25, 2010, 4:06 AM
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ok, so first of all, clip a piece in the the anchor as the first piece, quit trying to reinvent the wheel, thats what we have been doing forever.
NOW PAY ATTENTION
If there really is a crux before the first pro, and you really have to worry about a FF2, then this is how you prevent it, have the belayer rap down below the anchor. to a good piece or the last bolt of the previous pitch, he/she can clip into it for positioning alone, but stay on the main anchor by attaching yourself with the rope.
So, how you do that is to tie a figure 8 about 15 feet from your tie in to the anchor, then rap down, (stay tied in, so you dont rap off of the end), when you get to a stance or piece, tie in with whatever knot you want (I use a clove hitch on a locker) then when the leader of the next pitch, who stays at the anchor, already has 10-15 feet of rope out, and if clipped into the anchor, can no longer take a ff2...
Sure you might need to stretch the rope to get to the next pitch, but that can be dealt with....if you are really worried about a FF2, this will prevent it, even though it is a pain in the ass. In 18 years, I have done it twice, one time I was glad I did.
Questions?
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USnavy
Jun 25, 2010, 4:08 AM
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I always clip the belay station, you don’t want to catch a fall right off your belay loop. For the longest time I stated it’s next to impossible to catch a FF2 unless you had a locking belay device or gloves. The mathematics support this as well as plate belay devices don’t produce enough friction to stop a real factor two fall. However recently I climbed with someone who had some real experience. He caught a factor two fall right onto his belay loop with a 10.5 mm rope using a plate belay device (on the high friction mode). His partner apparently slipped right out of the belay station falling about 12 feet right onto the belay device. My partner (the belayer who caught the fall) said there was a large amount of rope slippage, even with both hands on the rope, and the rope inflicted some extremely painful burns on his hands. Keep in mind, the climber barely even got out of the belay station before he fell, this was not a whipper. This further confirms that if you try to catch any real factor two fall without a GriGri, you are going to melt your skin off your hands from rope slippage if you don’t have a GriGri. Just another reason why I use my Cinch or GriGri on multi-pitch lines.
But as previously said, you can eliminate the FF2 potential by rapping down a few meters and belaying your partner below the anchor.
(This post was edited by USnavy on Jun 25, 2010, 4:14 AM)
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Adan
Jun 25, 2010, 4:11 AM
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adatesman wrote: Adan wrote: In reply to: Is that belay device supposed to be oriented that way? Should the teeth not be on the brake hand side? Yeah generally, but it can be turned either way usually to increase or decrease the braking efficiency of the device (e.g. could lower required hand force to hold the rope). In reply to: I don't think you're going to find too many American climbers who will say that it is generally acceptable to belay the leader directly off the anchor, but if you are going to do it, then, first of all, what possible advantage does this convoluted setup have over simply using a Munter hitch; and, secondly, it doesn't look like it's going to be too easy to feed slack through that set up. So you would belay from your belay loop? Or the masterpoint? If masterpoint it makes no difference in the situation of a factor 2 and if in belay loop it is not really good to have a factor 2 pulling down on your harness, is it? Munter hitch would be a good option, I agree. And feeding back could be a problem as well that is true... Any other options? In reply to: Easiest way to avoid this is to clip one of the pieces of the anchor on your way up and then get something else in soon afterward. As for your pic, I seem to recall seeing a similar using-a-tube-on-an-anchor thing in a Guide-Tricks video a long while back. Never used it, not going to. IIRC it was intended for bringing up seconds, not belaying a leader. Seems to me a decidedly bad idea for lead belay, which is the only way you'd get a FF2 on it. As i mentioned in my first post. the anchor redirect clipping was discussed several times and increases the load on the anchor a lot, so i would like to not do that! And i think if you do not do that and even manage to put the first piece in and then fall and the piece comes out, you will have a pull downwards on the belay device, so i think it is important to know how to handle that and in which direction to pull the brake hand etc., especially because the brake hand must hold enormously at such a big fall. Do you prepare yourself for such a situation? If yes, how? Perhaps you could include the bit that says who you're responding to when quoting? That last bit is me, but the rest is not.  Anyway, I must have missed the discussion you're talking about. Frankly I disagree with your assessment, but will refrain from arguing the point if you'd kindly provide a link to the thread where it was discussed. As for how I prepare myself for such a situation- I don't put myself into such a situation. FF2 onto the anchor is not an option as far as I'm concerned. Ignoring the easy option of clipping one of the 3 pieces I use in an anchor, the next easiest thing to do is place another piece in the same feature used in one of said anchor legs. Barring that, FALLING IS NOT AN OPTION, regardless of belay device.
sorry for the quoting. I did not notice and haven't been in the forum for so long.
I got that information from the rgold collection and the original post is this one:
http://www.rockclimbing.com/...0pitch...%20;#572715
Ok so I understand if you do not clip in the anchor and clip somewhere near into another piece you just do not fall? and if then you trust that first placement to be bombproof? And if it would fail you (as belayer) would not be prepared for catching that fall and the leader might die because you do not know where to put your brake hand or the belay device is not setup for rope pulling downwards?
hmmm....risky.
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adatesman
Jun 25, 2010, 4:13 AM
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majid_sabet
Jun 25, 2010, 4:24 AM
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Adan wrote: adatesman wrote: Adan wrote: In reply to: Is that belay device supposed to be oriented that way? Should the teeth not be on the brake hand side? Yeah generally, but it can be turned either way usually to increase or decrease the braking efficiency of the device (e.g. could lower required hand force to hold the rope). In reply to: I don't think you're going to find too many American climbers who will say that it is generally acceptable to belay the leader directly off the anchor, but if you are going to do it, then, first of all, what possible advantage does this convoluted setup have over simply using a Munter hitch; and, secondly, it doesn't look like it's going to be too easy to feed slack through that set up. So you would belay from your belay loop? Or the masterpoint? If masterpoint it makes no difference in the situation of a factor 2 and if in belay loop it is not really good to have a factor 2 pulling down on your harness, is it? Munter hitch would be a good option, I agree. And feeding back could be a problem as well that is true... Any other options? In reply to: Easiest way to avoid this is to clip one of the pieces of the anchor on your way up and then get something else in soon afterward. As for your pic, I seem to recall seeing a similar using-a-tube-on-an-anchor thing in a Guide-Tricks video a long while back. Never used it, not going to. IIRC it was intended for bringing up seconds, not belaying a leader. Seems to me a decidedly bad idea for lead belay, which is the only way you'd get a FF2 on it. As i mentioned in my first post. the anchor redirect clipping was discussed several times and increases the load on the anchor a lot, so i would like to not do that! And i think if you do not do that and even manage to put the first piece in and then fall and the piece comes out, you will have a pull downwards on the belay device, so i think it is important to know how to handle that and in which direction to pull the brake hand etc., especially because the brake hand must hold enormously at such a big fall. Do you prepare yourself for such a situation? If yes, how? Perhaps you could include the bit that says who you're responding to when quoting? That last bit is me, but the rest is not. Anyway, I must have missed the discussion you're talking about. Frankly I disagree with your assessment, but will refrain from arguing the point if you'd kindly provide a link to the thread where it was discussed. As for how I prepare myself for such a situation- I don't put myself into such a situation. FF2 onto the anchor is not an option as far as I'm concerned. Ignoring the easy option of clipping one of the 3 pieces I use in an anchor, the next easiest thing to do is place another piece in the same feature used in one of said anchor legs. Barring that, FALLING IS NOT AN OPTION, regardless of belay device. sorry for the quoting. I did not notice and haven't been in the forum for so long. I got that information from the rgold collection and the original post is this one: http://www.rockclimbing.com/...0pitch...%20;#572715 Ok so I understand if you do not clip in the anchor and clip somewhere near into another piece you just do not fall? and if then you trust that first placement to be bombproof? And if it would fail you (as belayer) would not be prepared for catching that fall and the leader might die because you do not know where to put your brake hand or the belay device is not setup for rope pulling downwards? hmmm....risky.
Adan
You gonaaa die
(This post was edited by majid_sabet on Jun 25, 2010, 4:39 AM)
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Adan
Jun 25, 2010, 4:25 AM
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What is a wipper?
Did anybody ever try this method i posted in the picture?
It redirects as well and runs over a carabiner so more friction and the possibility of holding the fall is probably higher.....
I think these options of belaying below the anchor are quite good, but how often do you really do it?
So far nearly everybody is the option to use a redirect through the anchor as the normal way to do it.
Can you hold that ff2 fall when it happens?
Did anybody ever experience that?
And then you will get pulled up with the possibility of hurting yourself whilst losing control of the rope....
Although ff2 is unlikely if some rock breaks of or you slip or whatever it can always happen, so i think you should be prepared for it.
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adatesman
Jun 25, 2010, 4:25 AM
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whipper
Jun 25, 2010, 4:29 AM
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adatesman wrote: Adan wrote: sorry for the quoting. I did not notice and haven't been in the forum for so long. I got that information from the rgold collection and the original post is this one: http://www.rockclimbing.com/...0pitch...%20;#572715 Ok so I understand if you do not clip in the anchor and clip somewhere near into another piece you just do not fall? and if then you trust that first placement to be bombproof? And if it would fail you (as belayer) would not be prepared for catching that fall and the leader might die because you do not know where to put your brake hand or the belay device is not setup for rope pulling downwards? hmmm....risky. No worries; just got confusing is all.  Thanks for the link. I'll take a look at it in a bit. But yes, I fully expect my first piece off the anchor to be bomber and make sure that is the case. Usually this is taken care of automatically since I use one of the pieces used in the anchor, which are by definition bomber. BTW, place early and often is my motto; if there's a placement a foot or two off the anchor I'll use it. And the one next to that as well. Once there's a couple pieces between me and the anchor it's more of a am-I-looking-at-a-bad-fall/ledge-or-just-about-at-the-crux kind of thing.
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USnavy
Jun 25, 2010, 4:41 AM
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adatesman wrote: USnavy wrote: I always clip the belay station, you don’t want to catch a fall right off your belay loop. For the longest time I stated it’s next to impossible to catch a FF2 unless you had a locking belay device or gloves. The mathematics support this as well as plate belay devices don’t produce enough friction to stop a real factor two fall. However recently I climbed with someone who had some real experience. He caught a factor two fall right onto his belay loop with a 10.5 mm rope using a plate belay device (on the high friction mode). His partner apparently slipped right out of the belay station falling about 12 feet right onto the belay device. My partner (the belayer who caught the fall) said there was a large amount of rope slippage, even with both hands on the rope, and the rope inflicted some extremely painful burns on his hands. Keep in mind, the climber barely even got out of the belay station before he fell, this was not a whipper. This further confirms that if you try to catch any real factor two fall without a GriGri, you are going to melt your skin off from rope slippage if you don’t have a GriGri. Just another reason why I use my Cinch or GriGri on multi-pitch lines. But as previously said, you can eliminate the FF2 potential by rapping down a few meters and belaying your partner below the anchor. FF2 onto the anchor doesn't qualify as a whipper? 
(This post was edited by USnavy on Jun 25, 2010, 4:43 AM)
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RiverRatMatt
Jun 25, 2010, 7:03 AM
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jt512 wrote: RiverRatMatt wrote: I don't understand, if the leader falls before he puts the first protection in, he's just going to hit the ground... there's nothing above him that the rope is running through... Quoted, for totally classic rc.com posterity. Jay
Sorry, I've only been climbing about 5 months :/
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patto
Jun 25, 2010, 3:47 PM
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There is an excellent account of a factor 2 fall and discussion here that is worth a read:
http://www.chockstone.org/...D=6184&Replies=1
I don't think I have EVER clipped a piece off the anchor, basically because I don't consider FF2 onto the anchor an option. I normally sight the first piece of pro off my anchor and make my way to that.
As I said if a factor 2 fall is a possibility then I'll get the belayer to belay below the anchor.
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