While it is true that overtightening a bolt can cause metal fatigue there still needs to be more tension pulling the bolt into the face than there is weight hangin on it for it to hold.

No.

Think about the physics of how a nut threads on to a screw. The harder you tighten that nut (the nut is pushing against the rock, not on the bolt), the more the nut is trying to pull the bolt OUT of the rock. The bolt (if you're using a rawl, say) is set before you thread the nut.

The reason that you want the hanger tight is to lessen lateral torque on the end of the bolt, not "hold the bolt in". It just needs to be snug, and no more.

Where I climb there is a route where to FA ran out of hangers so they put 2 links of chain on each of the bolts.

Ok it's bolts for dumbies time.

In a 5 piece you are right there is no nut.
This in no way means a loose hanger is ok.

In One pic the bolt is taken apart just so you can see what "5" means. If you count the small washer there is really 6 plus the hanger. so 7 when in the rock with a hanger.

You should be able to see how when you turn the bolt the "cone" is threaded and is pulled up into the sleeve making the sleeve get wider and thus holding the bolt tightly into the hole.

If the bolt is loose the cone can be loose in the sleeve and not have enough pressure on the sides of the hole to keep the bolt in place.

It is pretty simple but more times then not it is the "simple" things that get you killed. Only a bolt that is tight with the cone pulled tightly into the sleeve is a "safe bolt" Given the rock and hole are good also.

[IMG]http://i165.photobucket.com/albums/u54/maddhatter1/BOLTS002.jpg[/IMG]
[IMG]http://i165.photobucket.com/albums/u54/maddhatter1/BOLTS003.jpg[/IMG]
[IMG]http://i165.photobucket.com/albums/u54/maddhatter1/BOLTS001.jpg[/IMG]

Also the blue washer is a "crush washer" it is there so when you feel it crush you know the bolt is almost tight enough. It's a feel thing not a set number.
Just tight but not cranked to the hilt. The threads in the cone can be stripped out if you over tighten the bolt.

No.

Think about the physics of how a nut threads on to a screw. The harder you tighten that nut (the nut is pushing against the rock, not on the bolt), the more the nut is trying to pull the bolt OUT of the rock. The bolt (if you're using a rawl, say) is set before you thread the nut.

The reason that you want the hanger tight is to lessen lateral torque on the end of the bolt, not "hold the bolt in". It just needs to be snug, and no more.

dude, you have a 5 piece with a nut? where did you find those?

Damn,
Those are some small bolts, what are they like 2 inch? We usually place 3 1/2 inch bolts.

Yea, 2". I would never use one in softer rock types. It was just the first one I grabbed.

Nice LOL.
2 inch is tiny...

We are doing some new lines, mostly in the hard 5.12 range. Ground up is out of question. it is hard enough to do them from the top down! Especially when they are massively overhanging off little hook placements!

Ground up is a good way to make a really shitty route that should later be chopped and rebolted on rap. No one gives a damm about someone’s first assent. What they care about is that the route is bolted as intelligent and safe as possible. The FA's onsight is not more important then the next 1,000 assents that will come afterwards by other people.

so you can remove the hanger easily? Is that not a clear sign? If the hanger comes off it doesn't matter if the bolt is good or not.

Ground up is a good way to make a really shitty route that should later be chopped and rebolted on rap. No one gives a damm about someone’s first assent. What they care about is that the route is bolted as intelligent and safe as possible. The FA's onsight is not more important then the next 1,000 assents that will come afterwards by other people. If you only bolt a route with regards to your FA and you don’t care about how safe it is or how well the bolts are placed you are not worthy enough to bolt routes.

There is nothing more I hate then climbing some ghetto rigged sport route that has a bolt at every rest spot and huge run outs over the hard sections because it was bolted from the ground up. That is completely unacceptable. Bolt right or dont bolt at all...

Yea, What ever brings it down to your level I guess.
If you hate run outs that much stay in the gym.
Ground up is an art if you don't respect the artist, do another climb. I'm not anti rap bolting but if it can be done ground up it should be. Then rapped and rebolted if needed. It's up to the FA'ist to make that call.

It’s not as much that I hate run outs as that I like sport. Sport climbing does not include run outs. If there is 20 feet between bolts, the route is not sport. If you can hit the ground from 30 feet up due to shitty bolt placements, the route is not sport. Against common belief, the term "sport" is not simply defined by any route that has some bolts on it and does not require gear. The term sport only applies to a route that is adequately bolted from top to bottom with spacing sufficient to prevent a ground fall in most cases with no requirements for traditional gear. In layman’s terms, if the route has run outs or requires gear, its not sport. It’s either mixed (requiring some gear over the run outs) or just a climb that has run outs on it (PG-13, R, X).

I don’t like sport routes with a bolt every 3 feet any more then anyone else. My current 5.12 project has a hard 5.11+ move that is 8 feet above the last bolt with 8 – 12 feet between bolts. However I like to get on a route and climb at my max without having to worry about killing myself from a ground fall if I can’t make the 5.12 crux 15 feet above the last bolt, 30 feet off the ground. Run outs have their place, just not on sport routes. Such is reserved for R, X, and multi-pitch.

It’s not as much that I hate run outs as that I like sport. Sport climbing does not include run outs. If there is 20 feet between bolts, the route is not sport. If you can hit the ground from 30 feet up due to shitty bolt placements, the route is not sport. Against common belief, the term "sport" is not simply defined by any route that has some bolts on it and does not require gear. The term sport only applies to a route that is adequately bolted from top to bottom with spacing sufficient to prevent a ground fall in most cases with no requirements for traditional gear. In layman’s terms, if the route has run outs or requires gear, its not sport. It’s either mixed (requiring some gear over the run outs) or just a climb that has run outs on it (PG-13, R, X).

I don’t like sport routes with a bolt every 3 feet any more then anyone else. My current 5.12 project has a hard 5.11+ move that is 8 feet above the last bolt with 8 – 12 feet between bolts. However I like to get on a route and climb at my max without having to worry about killing myself from a ground fall if I can’t make the 5.12 crux 15 feet above the last bolt, 30 feet off the ground. Run outs have their place, just not on sport routes. Such is reserved for R, X, and multi-pitch.

if it can be done ground up it should be. Then rapped and rebolted if needed. It's up to the FA'ist to make that call.

[I'm too much of a gumby to step into this discussion with an opinion, so take my question at face value. It's just an honest question.]

What's the purpose of bolting it ground up if it's going to be rebolted on rap? Are you saying that it should at least be attempted ground up and rebolted in case that doesn't work out? Or that it should be done ground up even if it's clear from the beginning that this will result in a poor bolt job?