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USnavy
Dec 21, 2008, 8:17 PM
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I have often clipped bolts that were so loose I could unscrew the nut or bolt off / out by hand and remove the hanger / bolt. So I am wondering if this is actually dangerous. I have done some research on this topic and found two answers.
1. The bolt is dangerous because expansion bolts work by expanding a sleeve or cone when the bolt is under tension and when the bolt becomes loose the sleeve or cone relaxes and is the returns to the same diameter leaving absolutely nothing to keep the bolt in the rock.
2. The bolt is not dangerous because when someone initially places a bolt the expanding sleeve is permanently wedged into the rock and even if the bolt becomes loose the sleeve still stays in place due to the friction created from the initial placement.
Although I know answer number two is likely true regarding some bolts in some cases, it’s not true regarding others. I have removed cone type expansion bolts on many occasions and all I had to do was loosen the nut and they came right out with a slight pull on a pribar.
How about the most commonly used bolt, the Rawl / Powers 5-piece expansion bolt? Is that bolt dangerous if loose?
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Lazlo
Dec 21, 2008, 8:23 PM
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USnavy wrote: I have often clipped bolts that were so loose I could unscrew the nut or bolt off / out by hand and remove the hanger / bolt. So I am wondering if this is actually dangerous. I have done some research on this topic and found two answers. 1. The bolt is dangerous because expansion bolts work by expanding a sleeve or cone when the bolt is under tension and when the bolt becomes loose the sleeve or cone relaxes and is the returns to the same diameter leaving absolutely nothing to keep the bolt in the rock. 2. The bolt is not dangerous because when someone initially places a bolt the expanding sleeve is permanently wedged into the rock and even if the bolt becomes loose the sleeve still stays in place due to the friction created from the initial placement. Although I know answer number two is likely true regarding some bolts in some cases, it’s not true regarding others. I have removed cone type expansion bolts on many occasions and all I had to do was loosen the nut and they came right out with a slight pull on a pribar. How about the most commonly used bolt, the Rawl / Powers 5-piece expansion bolt? Is that bolt dangerous if loose?
There's only several threads holding the bolt into the cone...in other words; give it several twists and it's out. The bolt; that is...not the sleeve. The sleeve is difficult to remove.
I love the RAWL when placed right. It gives me a warm fuzzy feeling.
EDIT: Let me expound on that by adding:
Loose= potentially dangerous.
Very loose=Very dangerous.
(This post was edited by Lazlo on Dec 21, 2008, 8:27 PM)
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taydude
Dec 21, 2008, 8:33 PM
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so you can remove the hanger easily? Is that not a clear sign? If the hanger comes off it doesn't matter if the bolt is good or not.
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Maddhatter
Dec 21, 2008, 8:38 PM
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USnavy wrote: I have often clipped bolts that were so loose I could unscrew the nut or bolt off / out by hand and remove the hanger / bolt. So I am wondering if this is actually dangerous. I have done some research on this topic and found two answers. 1. The bolt is dangerous because expansion bolts work by expanding a sleeve or cone when the bolt is under tension and when the bolt becomes loose the sleeve or cone relaxes and is the returns to the same diameter leaving absolutely nothing to keep the bolt in the rock. 2. The bolt is not dangerous because when someone initially places a bolt the expanding sleeve is permanently wedged into the rock and even if the bolt becomes loose the sleeve still stays in place due to the friction created from the initial placement. Although I know answer number two is likely true regarding some bolts in some cases, it’s not true regarding others. I have removed cone type expansion bolts on many occasions and all I had to do was loosen the nut and they came right out with a slight pull on a pribar. How about the most commonly used bolt, the Rawl / Powers 5-piece expansion bolt? Is that bolt dangerous if loose?
Any movement in the hanger is bad. It's a matter of how bad. In perfect rock and a perfect hole rules may apply. In the real world all hangers that spin are bad.
All bolts (other then glue in) are "expansion" bolts some take and some just don't without the nut. No matter what repeated hits on a loose hanger will in time weaken the bolt or move it out. I have put a lot of wires on studs with only a nut but have never been happy about doing it. It is a unsafe type of pro but much better then nothing.
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Lazlo
Dec 21, 2008, 8:44 PM
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Maddhatter wrote: USnavy wrote: I have often clipped bolts that were so loose I could unscrew the nut or bolt off / out by hand and remove the hanger / bolt. So I am wondering if this is actually dangerous. I have done some research on this topic and found two answers. 1. The bolt is dangerous because expansion bolts work by expanding a sleeve or cone when the bolt is under tension and when the bolt becomes loose the sleeve or cone relaxes and is the returns to the same diameter leaving absolutely nothing to keep the bolt in the rock. 2. The bolt is not dangerous because when someone initially places a bolt the expanding sleeve is permanently wedged into the rock and even if the bolt becomes loose the sleeve still stays in place due to the friction created from the initial placement. Although I know answer number two is likely true regarding some bolts in some cases, it’s not true regarding others. I have removed cone type expansion bolts on many occasions and all I had to do was loosen the nut and they came right out with a slight pull on a pribar. How about the most commonly used bolt, the Rawl / Powers 5-piece expansion bolt? Is that bolt dangerous if loose? Any movement in the hanger is bad. It's a matter of how bad. In perfect rock and a perfect hole rules may apply. In the real world all hangers that spin are bad. All bolts (other then glue in) are "expansion" bolts some take and some just don't without the nut. No matter what repeated hits on a loose hanger will in time weaken the bolt or move it out. I have put a lot of wires on studs with only a nut but have never been happy about doing it. It is a unsafe type of pro but much better then nothing.
There's a local route that is called 'wiring the transatlantic'. The story behind it is that the FAist didn't have the money for hangers, so he placed the bolts and placed wires on lead.
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sed
Dec 21, 2008, 9:29 PM
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My comment would be that any bolt/hanger is less safe loose than it would be tight. I would think this is particularly true of sleeve anchors like the powers but also true of wedge anchors to a lesser degree. I will and have clipped loose and horrible bolts when no alternative was present but in those situations I climb knowing that I really shouldn't fall.
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kovacs69
Dec 21, 2008, 11:39 PM
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Lazlo wrote: Maddhatter wrote: USnavy wrote: I have often clipped bolts that were so loose I could unscrew the nut or bolt off / out by hand and remove the hanger / bolt. So I am wondering if this is actually dangerous. I have done some research on this topic and found two answers. 1. The bolt is dangerous because expansion bolts work by expanding a sleeve or cone when the bolt is under tension and when the bolt becomes loose the sleeve or cone relaxes and is the returns to the same diameter leaving absolutely nothing to keep the bolt in the rock. 2. The bolt is not dangerous because when someone initially places a bolt the expanding sleeve is permanently wedged into the rock and even if the bolt becomes loose the sleeve still stays in place due to the friction created from the initial placement. Although I know answer number two is likely true regarding some bolts in some cases, it’s not true regarding others. I have removed cone type expansion bolts on many occasions and all I had to do was loosen the nut and they came right out with a slight pull on a pribar. How about the most commonly used bolt, the Rawl / Powers 5-piece expansion bolt? Is that bolt dangerous if loose? Any movement in the hanger is bad. It's a matter of how bad. In perfect rock and a perfect hole rules may apply. In the real world all hangers that spin are bad. All bolts (other then glue in) are "expansion" bolts some take and some just don't without the nut. No matter what repeated hits on a loose hanger will in time weaken the bolt or move it out. I have put a lot of wires on studs with only a nut but have never been happy about doing it. It is a unsafe type of pro but much better then nothing. There's a local route that is called 'wiring the transatlantic'. The story behind it is that the FAist didn't have the money for hangers, so he placed the bolts and placed wires on lead.
Where I climb there is a route where to FA ran out of hangers so they put 2 links of chain on each of the bolts.
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USnavy
Dec 21, 2008, 11:41 PM
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Lazlo
Dec 21, 2008, 11:41 PM
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kovacs69 wrote: Lazlo wrote: Maddhatter wrote: USnavy wrote: I have often clipped bolts that were so loose I could unscrew the nut or bolt off / out by hand and remove the hanger / bolt. So I am wondering if this is actually dangerous. I have done some research on this topic and found two answers. 1. The bolt is dangerous because expansion bolts work by expanding a sleeve or cone when the bolt is under tension and when the bolt becomes loose the sleeve or cone relaxes and is the returns to the same diameter leaving absolutely nothing to keep the bolt in the rock. 2. The bolt is not dangerous because when someone initially places a bolt the expanding sleeve is permanently wedged into the rock and even if the bolt becomes loose the sleeve still stays in place due to the friction created from the initial placement. Although I know answer number two is likely true regarding some bolts in some cases, it’s not true regarding others. I have removed cone type expansion bolts on many occasions and all I had to do was loosen the nut and they came right out with a slight pull on a pribar. How about the most commonly used bolt, the Rawl / Powers 5-piece expansion bolt? Is that bolt dangerous if loose? Any movement in the hanger is bad. It's a matter of how bad. In perfect rock and a perfect hole rules may apply. In the real world all hangers that spin are bad. All bolts (other then glue in) are "expansion" bolts some take and some just don't without the nut. No matter what repeated hits on a loose hanger will in time weaken the bolt or move it out. I have put a lot of wires on studs with only a nut but have never been happy about doing it. It is a unsafe type of pro but much better then nothing. There's a local route that is called 'wiring the transatlantic'. The story behind it is that the FAist didn't have the money for hangers, so he placed the bolts and placed wires on lead. Where I climb there is a route where to FA ran out of hangers so they put 2 links of chain on each of the bolts.
That sucks! Those NEED replacing.
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Lazlo
Dec 21, 2008, 11:43 PM
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USnavy wrote: So if loose hangers and bolts are dangerous then would it be appropriate for the FA to over tighten the bolts to at least 100 In./ lbs. to ensure it wont come loose on repeated falls (especially in sandstone)? Or would that cause more harm then good? I remember reading a post on here saying that its generally best to tighten bolts to about 40 in./ lbs. Well that’s insanely low. You can get that much torque with a screwdriver. The bolts in my area are tightened to 60 in./ lbs with 1/2" expantion bolts and it only takes about 10 lead falls before we get a spinner in some cases.
I thought it was 35 lbs. Yeah, you'll compromise the integrity of the bolt placement if you overtighten. DON'T do 100 lbs. That's wayyyyy too much.
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Lazlo
Dec 21, 2008, 11:44 PM
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USnavy wrote: So if loose hangers and bolts are dangerous then would it be appropriate for the FA to over tighten the bolts to at least 100 In./ lbs. to ensure it wont come loose on repeated falls (especially in sandstone)? Or would that cause more harm then good? I remember reading a post on here saying that its generally best to tighten bolts to about 40 in./ lbs. Well that’s insanely low. You can get that much torque with a screwdriver. The bolts in my area are tightened to 60 in./ lbs with 1/2" expantion bolts and it only takes about 10 lead falls before we get a spinner in some cases.
Maybe use glue-ins?
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clc
Dec 22, 2008, 12:14 AM
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25 ft.lbs. not inches its feet
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imcd
Dec 22, 2008, 12:41 AM
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maybe use a bit of epoxy to keep the nut in place, overtightening I think is worse than a loose hanger. also a lot of people will probably disagrea with this, but the majority of falls are working against the shear strength of the bolt, not the force generated by cinching the wedge or cone. a bolt that is under tourqued will still most probably hold where a bolt that is over tourqued could be suffering from metal fatigue or even be completly sheared. I'm not going to try it or imply that anyone else should, but I think a bolt in a good hole will hold most vertical or lower falls without even being tourqed at all.
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curt
Dec 22, 2008, 2:21 AM
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I always thought that spinners on 1/4" drive-in bolts was the norm. 
Curt
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Lazlo
Dec 22, 2008, 2:26 AM
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curt wrote: I always thought that spinners on 1/4" drive-in bolts was the norm. Curt
I reached a belay once while rope soloing. Single 1/4" button head with a home-made hanger. Next to it; an empty 1/4" hole. Time to shit the pants.
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Maddhatter
Dec 22, 2008, 2:40 AM
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Lazlo wrote: curt wrote: I always thought that spinners on 1/4" drive-in bolts was the norm. Curt I reached a belay once while rope soloing. Single 1/4" button head with a home-made hanger. Next to it; an empty 1/4" hole. Time to shit the pants.
I've been way run out in The black hills and had one brake off while clipping it! Another time I was replaceing bolts in J-tree. I think it was "the falcon and the snow man" I taped the 1/4" button head one time and the head popped off! I really F'in hate 1/4" button heads!!!!!! Yes I replaced both.
1/4" button heads are the reason I started replaceing bolts in the first place.
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angry
Dec 22, 2008, 3:47 AM
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Lazlo wrote: curt wrote: I always thought that spinners on 1/4" drive-in bolts was the norm. Curt I reached a belay once while rope soloing. Single 1/4" button head with a home-made hanger. Next to it; an empty 1/4" hole. Time to shit the pants.
Where do all you idiots find the time to shit your pants? I understand the appeal, I just don't know how to pencil it into a busy day.
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Hennessey
Dec 22, 2008, 3:56 AM
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Are loose bolts dangerous?
Sounds pretty self explanitory to me
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vegastradguy
Dec 22, 2008, 4:00 AM
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interestingly, the asca has told me that a 3/8" 5-piece should be tightened to roughly 10-12 ft lbs, and that a bolt that can be tightened more isnt necessarily a bad one. greg told me that a properly tightened bolt is not even close to as tight as you could make it by hand. (i will put a disclaimer on this: i am not a bolt expert by any means, i only know what i have learned from replacement work with the ASCA in red rock- go to safeclimbing.org for more information)
as for whether a bolt is bad or not- absolutely no way to know. a spinning hanger may mean nothing, might mean everything. same with a nut. no way to tell without actually testing the bolt.
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Lazlo
Dec 22, 2008, 5:20 AM
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angry wrote: Lazlo wrote: curt wrote: I always thought that spinners on 1/4" drive-in bolts was the norm. Curt I reached a belay once while rope soloing. Single 1/4" button head with a home-made hanger. Next to it; an empty 1/4" hole. Time to shit the pants. Where do all you idiots find the time to shit your pants? I understand the appeal, I just don't know how to pencil it into a busy day.
Well, it's all a matter of priority and proper dieting. 1/4" spinners are a nice catalyist for the poopie pants. Also up there is tied off KBs and wiggly ice screws.
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seatbeltpants
Dec 22, 2008, 7:44 PM
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one of the few crags near me is a total chosspile, and a fair few of the bolts are hardware store jobs - galvanised construction bolts with a big washer underneath and then a few links of chain. this on a coastal crag. i've never actually seen a bolt fail or so much as move, but a lot of the anchors have half a dozen holes around them from where the previous bolts popped.
good for maintaining your "leader shall not fall" ethic...
steve
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Maddhatter
Dec 22, 2008, 8:19 PM
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I have also topped out a climb in Vedawoo the Bolts "looked" fine so I hooked in, stood up and one of the bolts pulled right out! It was a 1/2" by 4" SS bolt! AWESOME bolt but placed in a really badly drilled hole. I tried to put it back in and tighten it and it just kept turning until it popped right back out.
It never took hold and this is great rock mind you.
Even great rock and great bolts can suck if the wrong person drills the hole.
Yes, I redrilled and replaced the bolt. before I rapped off.
(This post was edited by Maddhatter on Dec 22, 2008, 8:22 PM)
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dingus
Dec 22, 2008, 8:56 PM
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Opinion oriented response:
It depends (TM).
A loose nut on a stud bolt does almost nothing toward the integrity of the bolt itself. If loose enough the hanger becomes a lever though...
A loose nut on a sleeve bolt is not good, period. Even if the cup is securely wedged a loosened shaft has 'wiggle room' and when weighted will wiggle the cup too - eventually perhaps prying it loose.
A loose glue in bolt is bad fucking juju man!
If the shaft visibly wiggles in the hole - I don't care WHAT KIND of bolt it is... its dangerous.
Cheers
DMT
(This post was edited by dingus on Dec 22, 2008, 8:57 PM)
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Tree_wrangler
Dec 22, 2008, 9:20 PM
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In reply to: Where do all you idiots find the time to shit your pants? I understand the appeal, I just don't know how to pencil it into a busy day.
We're busy too, we just know how to manage our time better. Two tricks, multi-task (you can write a phone number while listening to someone talk, right) and relaxation.
You need to relax. For instance, I'm simultaneously typing you a response and just relaxing and......
oops.
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jr12288
Dec 24, 2008, 5:03 AM
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While it is true that overtightening a bolt can cause metal fatigue there still needs to be more tension pulling the bolt into the face than there is weight hangin on it for it to hold.
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