|
whipper
Jun 16, 2010, 11:28 AM
Post #27 of 97
(5740 views)
Shortcut
Registered: May 21, 2002
Posts: 241
|
My GOD there are a lot of wankers out there.....they read one thing on some forum and believe that the PAS is going to fail on a FF2! Why are you taking FF2 falls. I have been climbing for 18 years with over 1000 multipitch climbs, up to 5.12 trad, and I have never had a FF2, neither has any of my partners. These are full strength slings, just like all the other ones you tie your limiter knots in and QUADS, and all that other shit The op asked if it would work on bolt anchors, and yes it would work great. It might not be fully equalized, but it would be plenty good enough. So many of you anchor nuts want to build the perfect anchor, but there is NOT one that meets everything you need. clip a loop to each bolt, clip the loop that hangs the lowest in between for the power point and you are done. at least there is no extension if one bolt magically fails!
|
|
|
|
|
bill413
Jun 16, 2010, 12:30 PM
Post #28 of 97
(5727 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Oct 19, 2004
Posts: 5674
|
whipper wrote: I have been climbing for 18 years with over 1000 multipitch climbs, up to 5.12 trad, and I have never had a FF2, neither has any of my partners. Just because it hasn't happened to you doesn't mean that it doesn't happen. I have friends that have been in hundreds of thunderstorms, but they've never been struck by lightning. FF2 falls are rare. When leading, you get out of the high FF region fairly quickly as you place pro. But, we're building anchors to protect us in case things go wrong - not because we just want to fondle the gear (well, most of us).
|
|
|
|
|
patto
Jun 16, 2010, 12:49 PM
Post #29 of 97
(5718 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Nov 15, 2005
Posts: 1453
|
bill413 wrote: FF2 falls are rare. When leading, you get out of the high FF region fairly quickly as you place pro. But, we're building anchors to protect us in case things go wrong - not because we just want to fondle the gear (well, most of us). And as whipper rightly said. The PAS will hold your factor 2. Infact the PAS should be good for 18kN. Your factor 2 fall would be less than 10kN.
|
|
|
|
|
socalclimber
Jun 16, 2010, 1:31 PM
Post #30 of 97
(5705 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Nov 27, 2001
Posts: 2437
|
"not because we just want to fondle the gear (well, most of us)." There is always a few perverts in every crowd.
|
|
|
|
|
gmggg
Jun 16, 2010, 1:37 PM
Post #31 of 97
(5700 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Jun 25, 2009
Posts: 2099
|
To bring this back on track... OP, at what point do you un-girth hitch your PAS to construct the anchor? Or do you intend to belay from above the masterpoint with your crotch 4 inches from the wall?
|
|
|
|
|
spikeddem
Jun 16, 2010, 1:37 PM
Post #32 of 97
(5700 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Aug 27, 2007
Posts: 6319
|
patto wrote: DexterRutecki wrote: False. I am relying on 2 separate strands. If either was to be cut (not expected to happen, but nonetheless), the attached biner or biners would still be connected to the anchor. In that setup, the 2 strands of material go to the limiter knots, and don't form a loop with each other. This is in contrast to one "loop" of a PAS, which would cease to be connected to anything if it were cut. This is not rocket surgery. Im wrong. I apolise. I guess I'm not going to be a rocket surgeon. Still my point still stands. There are many parts of a climbing system that isn't redundant. That said I have often taken to bringing up two seconds with the Reverso when I lead. I normally claim I bring two seconds for redundancy. In addition to it being ridiculous to distrust the climbing rope to build an anchor off of, you (Dexter) are wrong about this too. Assuming you use one carabiner, you are relying on one strand as you have it setup here. That is, unless you are actually referring to a quad, but it certainly doesn't seem so.
|
|
|
|
|
Rudmin
Jun 16, 2010, 2:17 PM
Post #33 of 97
(5682 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Mar 29, 2009
Posts: 606
|
whipper wrote: My GOD there are a lot of wankers out there.....they read one thing on some forum and believe that the PAS is going to fail on a FF2! Why are you taking FF2 falls. I have been climbing for 18 years with over 1000 multipitch climbs, up to 5.12 trad, and I have never had a FF2, neither has any of my partners. These are full strength slings, just like all the other ones you tie your limiter knots in and QUADS, and all that other shit The op asked if it would work on bolt anchors, and yes it would work great. It might not be fully equalized, but it would be plenty good enough. So many of you anchor nuts want to build the perfect anchor, but there is NOT one that meets everything you need. clip a loop to each bolt, clip the loop that hangs the lowest in between for the power point and you are done. at least there is no extension if one bolt magically fails! +1
|
|
|
|
|
jt512
Jun 16, 2010, 3:37 PM
Post #34 of 97
(5648 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Apr 12, 2001
Posts: 21904
|
Rudmin wrote: whipper wrote: My GOD there are a lot of wankers out there.....they read one thing on some forum and believe that the PAS is going to fail on a FF2! Why are you taking FF2 falls. I have been climbing for 18 years with over 1000 multipitch climbs, up to 5.12 trad, and I have never had a FF2, neither has any of my partners. These are full strength slings, just like all the other ones you tie your limiter knots in and QUADS, and all that other shit The op asked if it would work on bolt anchors, and yes it would work great. It might not be fully equalized, but it would be plenty good enough. So many of you anchor nuts want to build the perfect anchor, but there is NOT one that meets everything you need. clip a loop to each bolt, clip the loop that hangs the lowest in between for the power point and you are done. at least there is no extension if one bolt magically fails! +1 Hard to tell who the bigger idiot is here: the guy who says don't worry about factor-2 falls, or the guy who "+1"s him. Jay
|
|
|
|
|
Rudmin
Jun 16, 2010, 3:45 PM
Post #35 of 97
(5639 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Mar 29, 2009
Posts: 606
|
jt512 wrote: Rudmin wrote: whipper wrote: My GOD there are a lot of wankers out there.....they read one thing on some forum and believe that the PAS is going to fail on a FF2! Why are you taking FF2 falls. I have been climbing for 18 years with over 1000 multipitch climbs, up to 5.12 trad, and I have never had a FF2, neither has any of my partners. These are full strength slings, just like all the other ones you tie your limiter knots in and QUADS, and all that other shit The op asked if it would work on bolt anchors, and yes it would work great. It might not be fully equalized, but it would be plenty good enough. So many of you anchor nuts want to build the perfect anchor, but there is NOT one that meets everything you need. clip a loop to each bolt, clip the loop that hangs the lowest in between for the power point and you are done. at least there is no extension if one bolt magically fails! +1 Hard to tell who the bigger idiot is here: the guy who says don't worry about factor-2 falls, or the guy who "+1"s him. Jay The point is that people are bitching because the PAS failed under a factor two fall when used as a personal anchor without rope. They have somehow extrapolated that a PAS will therefore fail under any factor two fall with a dynamic rope when it is used as anchor material. Hopefully you understand why that is not true. Anyways, I +1'd the wanker comment in bold, not the FF2 comment.
|
|
|
|
|
vegastradguy
Jun 16, 2010, 3:55 PM
Post #36 of 97
(5635 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Aug 28, 2002
Posts: 5919
|
DexterRutecki wrote: I.E., someone like John Long coming up with the equalette as an alternative to the standard cordellete setup. KISS - Keep it simple stupid. well, Long actually used this site to think up and refine the equalette- and, dude, the equalette is hardly KISS- in fact, i'd argue its the exact opposite.
In reply to: So, 2 bolts? Double length sling, 2 limiter knots (overhand), clip master point in sliding X configuration, and clip the ends to the bolts. Solid placements (bolts), redundant, equalized, no extension (at least, limited extension.) Boom. Done, very simple. Don't fix what isn't broken. (Yes, there are other ways to do this, this is just a simple, standard one.) this is not standard for two bolts- in fact, despite Long schlepping this system for a couple of years now, i have yet to see (or use) it in trad climbing, let alone at a bolted anchor.
|
|
|
|
|
vegastradguy
Jun 16, 2010, 3:59 PM
Post #37 of 97
(5629 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Aug 28, 2002
Posts: 5919
|
whipper wrote: My GOD there are a lot of wankers out there.....they read one thing on some forum and believe that the PAS is going to fail on a FF2! Why are you taking FF2 falls. who said anything about reading that in a forum? and the last i checked, people dont try to take FF2 falls, but they do actually occur now and then. i've caught one myself (near FF2, prolly 1.8ish), and experienced one near FF2 (prolly 1.6-7ish). God forbid we should actually account for them in anchoring. besides, think about the WAY the OP wants to use the PAS- in theory it would work, in reality, it doesnt make any sense because the PAS isnt long enough. finally, if you're that hell bent on avoiding using knots- theres this thing called a sliding X that would work just fine.
|
|
|
|
|
csproul
Jun 16, 2010, 4:04 PM
Post #38 of 97
(5628 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Jun 4, 2004
Posts: 1769
|
vegastradguy wrote: DexterRutecki wrote: So, 2 bolts? Double length sling, 2 limiter knots (overhand), clip master point in sliding X configuration, and clip the ends to the bolts. Solid placements (bolts), redundant, equalized, no extension (at least, limited extension.) Boom. Done, very simple. Don't fix what isn't broken. (Yes, there are other ways to do this, this is just a simple, standard one.) this is not standard for two bolts- in fact, despite Long schlepping this system for a couple of years now, i have yet to see (or use) it in trad climbing, let alone at a bolted anchor. I see it all the time, both w/ and without the limiter knots. In fact, I have seen it in your neck of the woods fairly recently.
|
|
|
|
|
jt512
Jun 16, 2010, 4:07 PM
Post #39 of 97
(5626 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Apr 12, 2001
Posts: 21904
|
Aside from all the other valid warnings about the PAS (see, especially, vegastradguy's posts), your first anchor, shown below, is poor in principle. The load is not shared at all between the bolts; it is entirely on the left bolt. If this bolt were to fail, the right bolt would be shock loaded. The PAS is made from Spectra, which has essentially no shock absorbing ability, so, unless there were some rope in the system, the force transmitted to the right bolt could be dangerously high. As a beginner, you shouldn't be using gimmicky devices, like the PAS or daisy chains, at all. They unnecessarily introduce unobvious dangers into the system. The PAS is potentially dangerous as a means of attaching yourself to the anchor; spectra can break under a factor-1 fall. Even just using a rubber band on a sling to prevent the biner from rotating introduces a completely unnecessary subtle danger. Simplicity is safety. Jay
|
Attachments:
|
Bildschirmfoto%202010-06-16%20um%2011.39.26.jpg
(47.3 KB)
|
|
|
|
|
caughtinside
Jun 16, 2010, 4:13 PM
Post #40 of 97
(5617 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Jan 8, 2003
Posts: 30603
|
gmggg wrote: To bring this back on track... OP, at what point do you un-girth hitch your PAS to construct the anchor? Or do you intend to belay from above the masterpoint with your crotch 4 inches from the wall? Un-girth hitching from the harness isn't so hard. I was using a double length sling with a couple knots to cowtail in a couple years ago, and ran out of slings a couple times trying to do full 70m pitch links. I was able to get a one handed stance and remove the cowtail with the other hand. The moral of the story is that 70m pitches are just too much work.
|
|
|
|
|
patmay81
Jun 16, 2010, 4:35 PM
Post #41 of 97
(5601 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Aug 3, 2006
Posts: 1081
|
I dont really care to read through this whole thread as it is probably just people reaming you. There are a few problems I have with your idea and diagrams. first, the PAS was not (to my knowledge) ever designed or intended for this purpose. They are best used for aid, there are better options for securing yourself to an anchor for multi pitch belay. And far better options for constructing an anchor. second, you have an anchor with a lot of nylon on nylon or worse spectra on spectra contact. This is bad. Third, depending on your anchor of choice a poor choice of clipping direction could cause the master point to tear the stitching and thus the anchor to fail. As for your diagrams, I'm not sure where you got them, but the second one in the second attachment is showing a nearly perfect ADT- this is frowned on by most compitent climbers.
|
|
|
|
|
spikeddem
Jun 16, 2010, 4:47 PM
Post #42 of 97
(5590 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Aug 27, 2007
Posts: 6319
|
patmay81 wrote: As for your diagrams, I'm not sure where you got them, but the second one in the second attachment is showing a nearly perfect ADT- this is frowned on by most compitent climbers. An ADT has two issues: load amplification and lack of redundancy. The sling is clove hitched to both carabiners. I don't see either issue in that anchor.
|
|
|
|
|
jt512
Jun 16, 2010, 4:49 PM
Post #43 of 97
(5585 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Apr 12, 2001
Posts: 21904
|
spikeddem wrote: patmay81 wrote: As for your diagrams, I'm not sure where you got them, but the second one in the second attachment is showing a nearly perfect ADT- this is frowned on by most compitent climbers. An ADT has two issues: load amplification and lack of redundancy. The sling is clove hitched to both carabiners. I don't see either issue in that anchor. This is correct. There is no American triangle in either anchor. Jay
|
|
|
|
|
acorneau
Jun 16, 2010, 5:47 PM
Post #44 of 97
(5556 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Feb 6, 2008
Posts: 2889
|
Since everyone else has beat you up enough I'll toss out a more direct answer to your question. That way I'll get flamed for a few pages! (Sorry for the lame graphics but you get the point.) This possible anchor assumes a few things: 1. A two-bolt anchor in a horizontal arrangement. 2. Swinging leads. Red X's are bolts and the master point biner(s) attach to both loops at the bottom. Not shown is the use of your rope to clove hitch the farther bolt. Ta da!
(This post was edited by acorneau on Jun 16, 2010, 5:51 PM)
|
Attachments:
|
PAS anchor.jpg
(14.8 KB)
|
|
|
|
|
gmggg
Jun 16, 2010, 6:37 PM
Post #45 of 97
(5534 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Jun 25, 2009
Posts: 2099
|
Your drawing is out of proportion. In order to get the length you need to create a decent angle between the bolts would be for you to clip into the right bolt with only one loop from the PAS. This would put your harness ~4-6 inches from the bolt and above the master point. Can you draw a diagram that explains why I just responded to this thread again?
|
|
|
|
|
acorneau
Jun 16, 2010, 6:44 PM
Post #46 of 97
(5527 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Feb 6, 2008
Posts: 2889
|
The PAS is 42" long, so if you use the 4 last links for the anchor (2 per side) that leaves you the long girth-hitch strand and the first link for your connection to the first bolt. That should be about 18-20" of length (my guess).
|
|
|
|
|
patmay81
Jun 16, 2010, 7:38 PM
Post #47 of 97
(5492 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Aug 3, 2006
Posts: 1081
|
jt512 wrote: spikeddem wrote: patmay81 wrote: As for your diagrams, I'm not sure where you got them, but the second one in the second attachment is showing a nearly perfect ADT- this is frowned on by most compitent climbers. An ADT has two issues: load amplification and lack of redundancy. The sling is clove hitched to both carabiners. I don't see either issue in that anchor. This is correct. There is no American triangle in either anchor. Jay upon further review, I was wrong. I still don't like the anchor, but it is not a death triangle. I apologize for my quick, thoughtless and inaccurate accusation.
|
|
|
|
|
shu2kill
Jun 16, 2010, 7:39 PM
Post #48 of 97
(5492 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Apr 9, 2008
Posts: 352
|
the OP said:
In reply to: I was wondering if any of you use it not to secure yourself TO an anchor, but to build an anchor on multi pitch routes. so i assumed he is not trying to build the anchor AND have the PAS girth hitched to his harness at the same time... i thought he would use the PAS as a regular sling, and climb with it clipped to a biner and hanging from the harness as you would have any other sling...
|
|
|
|
|
qwert
Jun 16, 2010, 8:45 PM
Post #50 of 97
(5472 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Mar 24, 2004
Posts: 2394
|
Adan, you are posting your examples straight from the DAV Lehrplan, or another DAV publication, so why dont you want to use it the way it is described there? apart from the cultural differences between the USA and europe, the shown solutions work, are safe and easy to use. If you want a prefabricated version, just buy a belay sling, as available from Edelrid, or Mammut or a lot of other manufacturers, that is made specifically for this textbook method (and still offers more multipurpose use than the PAS). Shure, you could use a PAS, and be safe in most cases, but its additional comlications (and money spent) you dont need. And while it might not hurt you, it definitely will bring you no benefits, so why bother? qwert
|
|
|
|
|
|