on the few images I got from PAS during fall test, it failed at FF 1.25 and as vegas was saying, the realistic FF is about 1.7-1.8 and not FF 2.0

OK....Please tell me where that came from...the PAS fails at FF 1.25 That just doesnt make sense....a FF 1.25 for girl who weighs 90 pounds is a massively different force than a fat ass who weighs 225, you simply can not blatantly say that anything will fail at FFX
Jay, I did not say dont worry about them...I say avoid them! I will start a thread about just how to do that....

I will post the photo as I have posted few times before. the test was 100kg and PAS broke at FF 1.25. also, 90 lbs is too low. most climbers are in the 130-170 lbs plus 1/8 pig on their harness so add another 20 lbs for a light rack. i would say, 150-200 lbs should be pretty close for an average climber on the wall .

I admire Adan's approach to exploring options and playing with new approaches. Posting to a forum is a good way to get quality (and not) feedback.

sigh* considering virtually all anchoring options out there contain a knot or two, including one at the master point, trying to avoid a knot is pointless. and yes, a knot weakens webbing, but not by 50%.

its more because the PAS is girth hitched to you than because its part of the anchor. im too lazy to diagram it out for you, but if you fall onto your PAS @ anchor, it can fail, and if it is your anchor, you're really hosed.

So, 2 bolts? Double length sling, 2 limiter knots (overhand), clip master point in sliding X configuration, and clip the ends to the bolts. Solid placements (bolts), redundant, equalized, no extension (at least, limited extension.) Boom. Done, very simple. Don't fix what isn't broken. (Yes, there are other ways to do this, this is just a simple, standard one.)

All those telling the OP to read Long and Luebben and whatnot, have you ever taken a look at Schubert's or Semmel's work? The latter, more actual text on anchors is easily available on the net and should be comprehensive just from the many pictures. Just google "standplatz skript 2009 dav". Heck, I'll even give you a link: http://www.alpenverein.de/...913&mode=details

Please understand that this is scientific work, only from a different perspective and with a different cultural background. That doesn't make it any less valid.
(One could argue how much Europe is influenced by the greater use of bolts in a certain period of time and that trad climbing is certainly stronger in the US or UK but that's another can of worms)

OP, at what point do you un-girth hitch your PAS to construct the anchor? Or do you intend to belay from above the masterpoint with your crotch 4 inches from the wall?

The point is that people are bitching because the PAS failed under a factor two fall when used as a personal anchor without rope. They have somehow extrapolated that a PAS will therefore fail under any factor two fall with a dynamic rope when it is used as anchor material. Hopefully you understand why that is not true.

finally, if you're that hell bent on avoiding using knots- theres this thing called a sliding X that would work just fine.

The load is not shared at all between the bolts; it is entirely on the left bolt. If this bolt were to fail, the right bolt would be shock loaded. The PAS is made from Spectra, which has essentially no shock absorbing ability, so, unless there were some rope in the system, the force transmitted to the right bolt could be dangerously high.

As for your diagrams, I'm not sure where you got them, but the second one in the second attachment is showing a nearly perfect ADT- this is frowned on by most compitent climbers.

so i assumed he is not trying to build the anchor AND have the PAS girth hitched to his harness at the same time... i thought he would use the PAS as a regular sling, and climb with it clipped to a biner and hanging from the harness as you would have any other sling...

Maybe I'll start carrying it for building anchors, apparently I misjudged the OP and he meant to rack a PAS as a completely separate piece of gear. Which leads to the question, what then do you clip into the anchors with when you initially get there?

Adan, you are posting your examples straight from the DAV Lehrplan, or another DAV publication, so why dont you want to use it the way it is described there?
apart from the cultural differences between the USA and europe, the shown solutions work, are safe and easy to use.
If you want a prefabricated version, just buy a belay sling, as available from Edelrid, or Mammut or a lot of other manufacturers, that is made specifically for this textbook method (and still offers more multipurpose use than the PAS).
Shure, you could use a PAS, and be safe in most cases, but its additional comlications (and money spent) you dont need. And while it might not hurt you, it definitely will bring you no benefits, so why bother?

The two hangers are 12" apart which would be about average out on the rock. The angle at the master point is about 70 degrees which is quite respectable. The length to the girth hitch is roughly 18".

Two things.
1. Thats a static fall onto an anchor. Not a lead fall.
2. Those tests, while a start reminder not to take falls onto slings, are not even close to representative. You body has significantly more elasticity than a steel weight.

There is zero evidence that these slings will break under static falls with real human bodies. Until they get a gelatinous dummy into a drop tower then the tests don't come close.

is PAS safe while your buddy is jugging on a fix line but then his jumers zips and gives him a 10 feet fall ?

Could anybody post me something to proof that sling material (rated 22 kn) will brake at factor 2 falls????

With so many superior ways to build an anchor, not the least of which being with the climbing rope which requires no gear, why on earth would you dick around with a misapplication of an already questionable piece of gear?

is PAS safe while your buddy is jugging on a fix line but then his jumers zips and gives him a 10 feet fall ?

here's your proof that spectra breaks a loads near FF2- there's more than this out there, but i dont have the links offhand.

i dont think that the PAS would necessarily fail in this application (now that i understand it correctly), but then again, as another poster metioned, you've got softgoods rubbing up against eachother now and spectra/dyneema has a much lower melting point than nylon....it just doesnt work for me in my head.

they still arent without weaknesses.

I already gave you a link that "proofs" that; in fact, as the video shows, a Spectra sling can be broken with a factor-1 fall.

what so bad about this method? well the german and austrian alpine clubs did tests with force measurements what happens if a bolt breaks. And the extension brings a much greater force input on the remaining bolt than "just a swing" from a not perfectly equalized system. Look at the pictures i posted. According to the force measuerements and fall tests, these are supposed to be the optimal setups for, "at least one good placement" and "two dodgy ones". I trust the science here, besides the setups are not just proofen to be good by the fall tests and measurements but also by the experiece of the people climbing the alps for a long long time!!!!The alpine clubs in europe are quite old....

Could anybody post me something to proof that sling material (rated 22 kn) will brake at factor 2 falls???? this is just not true!!! the falls in the video posted are not realistic at all. the factor 2 fall would occur on an anchor which is preloaded with your bodyweight and the rope will absorb some energy dynamically as well...absolutely not compareble to real world situations.

The "swing" if the "solid" bolt should come out is far far less than any extensiion which could happen in a fully equalized system with a sliding X!!! again, all tested and proofen!!!

John long did tests too. His tests say the extension is fine. This forum believes that. John long is wrong. Extension is not fine when there is the belayer's weight in the system.

Two things.
1. Thats a static fall onto an anchor. Not a lead fall.
2. Those tests, while a start reminder not to take falls onto slings, are not even close to representative. You body has significantly more elasticity than a steel weight.

There is zero evidence that these slings will break under static falls with real human bodies. Until they get a gelatinous dummy into a drop tower then the tests don't come close.

OK, I watched the videos, while good info, that does not even relate to real world climbing. Yes, if you fell just like that, your gonna get hurt, but that is way different from a climber being 15 feet above the anchor and falling 30 on the rope, it will be a bad fall, but it is simply not going to rip a PAS or and normal anchor.
What that video should do is make you people rethink your limiter knots in your sliding Xs

but these falls have nothing to do with the reality. you always have a rope and you always have the slings loaded before the fall goes in it....

Sure, if there is a rope in the system, but that's not the point. The point is that if you are tethered to the anchor by a Spectra sling, even a small amount of slack in the sling could be dangerous. Say you're attached to the anchor, and you decide you want to reset a piece in the anchor that you have to climb a couple feet up to reach. The video shows that a fall in this seemingly benign scenario can break your attachment to the anchor.

Jay

How is this situation different from a sliding-x or any other spectra based anchor?

I think a good argument can be made for avoiding Spectra in the anchor, but regardless, if you are attached to the anchor via a dynamic rope, then the rope reduces the impact force throughout the anchor, even if all the slings in the anchor are Spectra.

pictures are taken from the austrian alpine club. this is what we teach in austria. Official recomendation by german and austrian alpine club "how to build an anchor"!!!

I rather trust the scientific falls conducted by the german and austrian alpine club with realy humans, and real world setups.

rope? another sling grith hitched and biner.. something eelse....