Call BD and get the rep fired? That's the stupidest post I've yet read on this site, and that's saying something! I personally know 2 BD sales reps, and not only do they know their product, their input helps to design product In fact, one of them put up some of the hardest and daring trad routes on the east coast. They know a hell of a lot more than just what's on the spec sheet. If one of them says that the keeper loop wire is hella strong, then guess what? They're probably correct! That's a far cry from the rep advising climbers to buy 6 and use them for pro.

and as far as grigri's vs. reverso... i think the grigri would offer better semi-wide options, but who climbs trad with one of them?

Actually it is an interesting concept. Alexmac, maby when you have been in this game a bit longer you might appreciate the idea. I have used biners as stoppers before. $hit happens ocasionaly like the time my buddy headded up Three Rings for the elven Kings thinking it was a clip up only to find himself totaly commited to 5.9+ X climbing that required gear he didn't have. There are times when you can't down climb, you can't lower off and the only way out alive is up. i try to NEVER have any biners on my harness that you couldn't use for climbing. That means that your chalk bag, nut tool, water bottle etc are clipped with real biners NOT those little fake things. Even sling the water bottle with a real runner so it can be used in an emergancy. I have ended up useing my nut tool biner hundreds of times to either clip gear or as part of the belay. I never thought of useing my spare belay device as a stopper but it would be a heck of a lot better than nothing or a knotted runner . Run out 20ft, out of small hands gear, 10ft to the belay but a hard move to get there, sling it, jam it in there and go

My experience with Rep's is that they'll tell you pretty much anything that sounds good. I'm not calling them liars, I'm just saying the're salespeople first and foremost.

I bet your still waiting for the US army to find WMD in iraq too.

OK, have it your way. Just for the record, which one of the reps are you calling a liar? You must know at least one to be making that judgement.

and I thought placing passive camalots was stupid....

You know, I actually did that once...just because I could. It was a route where the back of the crack was big enough for a #3 BD to sit, but the front tapered to a thin crack (imagine two flakes together, the whole crack was like that). And there was a pefect pod for the BD to sit on.

ahhh yess, the covetted "AS BIG AS IT GETS" hex....it woulda been perfect.

I would use an atc as a nut slung on the middle bar, but the probability of actually needing it bad AND having a good spot is very low.

Note I said "sling it and go" NO I would not trust the wire loop but rigged with a sling or even one of my 6mm auto block cords it may make a passable piece. Coolest placement I ever saw was a 1/4 keg jamed in a chimny on Moby Grape. I Stuffed a #2 Camalot in the handle hole. wish I had a camera that time it would have been priceless.

i guess it is all in how we read thiings, I am sure there is some person out there who will say, "hey watch this" and use it as pro, why , they read it here.

I can see in no spot where you would use your atc as a piece of passive pro, why not just take your pants off and use it as a sling too.

If a BD rep did suggest this (ATC as passive pro), it may have been a joke (I hope).

Actually, Alex, I think you need to take a deep breath and relax. The OP said, to the effect of, "I think I remember a sales rep saying an ATC could take a significant amount of force, measured in kilonewtons." Nowhere in his recollection did I hear the sales rep say that the ATC could be used for pro, should be used for pro, or would be used for pro. In fact, the OP found evidence to back up the orignal assertion, that "an ATC could take a significant amount of force." Accusing the sales rep of negligence and misrepresentation of BD is simply wrong, and you've had plenty of time to retract your statements. Here's another moment. Take it.

This is not the Beginner forum, and I expect readers of this thread to use their judgement. This means they should weigh the pros and cons of this arguement and make their own decision. Anyone whose only justification for their actions is "I read about it once on this onlive discussion forum," is stupid and deserves to be slapped down by whatever god or karma you believe in.

K Guys. Got a reply from Scott B at BD. It was as follows:

Email #1:

Thank you for writing in. Our ATC is tested according to the forces it
would encounter when used for its' intended use. The directionality is very
important just like testing carabiners along their major axis along the
spine. I would highly discourage using the ATC upside down or in any other
configuration other than as it is shown in the "Instructions for Use"
pamphlet that comes with the ATC.

Email #2:

While we can't recommend that the ATC be used, even in an emergency
situation as a nut, the tests for the rating are performed on the outward
edges of the device. This is of course where force is applied in a
belay/rappel scenario.

In the second email I asked about the strength rating and how it was derived AND I gave him the purpose I was asking about weird strength stats.

So there it is, take it or leave it. Its been an interesting discussion to say the least. Thanks for contributing.