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clandestino
Mar 23, 2004, 10:47 PM
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i have noticed in a several threads(most notably in a current one - Will you let anyone belay you...) a "big" faith in a gri-gri devise ....
I just like to point out a fact that a number of studies have been done
which showed that the biggest number of belay-ing accidents involved
the use of gri-gri ...
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mustclimb69
Mar 23, 2004, 10:56 PM
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yep...you act surprised....
GirGris are very popular and many dont know how to use them!!!
If the cam does not ingage you sould be able to use the friction lip effectively. I can use mine with the cam welded shut if need be.
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mcumbrae
Mar 23, 2004, 11:03 PM
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I think the commonly used "automatic" and "foolproof" words are to be revised in this matter. I think of a GriGri as an ATC with a backup in case the belayer gets hit by rockfall and/or loses control of the rope during a fall or lowering. The cam should not be trusted blindly.
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cliffmonkey2003
Mar 23, 2004, 11:03 PM
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This has been duly noted many times before dude. I myself am guilty of almost killing myself by neglecting to instruct my belayer in their use :oops: . You would think that they're a common sense tool, but some people aren't really quick at seeing how they work. Almost everyone has heard that warning dozens of times already, but thanks for the friendly reminder.
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sarcat
Mar 24, 2004, 2:38 PM
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Topic beaten to death. Let's hope by now everyone has pulled out their manual on the thing and re-read it or read it for the first time.
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epic_ed
Mar 24, 2004, 3:34 PM
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In reply to: i have noticed in a several threads(most notably in a current one - Will you let anyone belay you...) a "big" faith in a gri-gri devise .... I just like to point out a fact that a number of studies have been done which showed that the biggest number of belay-ing accidents involved the use of gri-gri ...
Please cite one. Not that I really care. I'm just really sick of members who think they are doing everyone a great service by announcing these ridiculous PSAs, somehow hoping to to save the rest of us from ourselves and our inevitable stupidity.
Climbing is dangerous. Period. All gear, if not used properly, can get you killed. Heck, even when you'r using everything exactly the way it was intended, you can still get killed.
At the very least, if you're going to spout off about something you think all of us urgently need to know about, please provide some emperical data for your claims rather than just tossing out anecdotal evidence. I could understand if you want to bring this up as a topic for discussion to see what others think, but that's not your point. You make this statement like your some authority on the subject and we should all be extremely grateful that you're looking out for us. So back it up, big guy. Tell us why we should look to you for the saftey tip of the day.
Ed
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saagax
Mar 24, 2004, 3:51 PM
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I don´t find the Gri-Gri as dangerous, but I rather be belayed with an ATC, Reverso or a similar device, it happened to me last weekend, my belayer was using a Gri-gri and because of my rope (Roca hard-shock 10.5mm) she was having a lot of trouble because it was not letting her give me enough rope, it wasn´t really dangerous, but it was making my climbing miserable.
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crag
Mar 24, 2004, 4:32 PM
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The basic principle behind a Gri-Gri is great, auto locking and such. Great for belaying a partner on a big wall climb, hang dogging spurtty routes, hanging off of your harness to show how much climbing bling-bling you got. Etc.
The biggest problem with a Gri-Gri and what cause most accidents with them is that there so damn heavy. I mean did you ever get hit with one of these things - it hurts. No seriously it’s the lever action, it counter intuitive to almost everybody’s brain. Most people’s reaction when they see their buddy hurtling to the ground while they are lowering said buddy is to push/pull on the lever harder thus opening the area between cam and rope to its fullest. Hence the need for belay gloves to help protect belay Betty's hands. To actually let go of something to make it stop is completely opposite to what most peoples reactions would be.
Back to using hip belays I say!
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dsafanda
Mar 24, 2004, 4:45 PM
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I'm with Ed. Please cite some or at least one of these numerous studies that you refer to.
In terms of durability, functionality and safety I believe the Gri-Gri is hands down one of the best designed products in the climbing gear industry. It may very well factor in to numerous accidents and there could be different ways to interoperate the statistics. I for one would like to read these studies and draw my own conclusions. Please list the authors and safety organizations involved in these studies. That will help this conversation immensely. Thanks.
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j_ung
Mar 24, 2004, 5:13 PM
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Dude, you obviously don't know what you're talking about.
Gri-gris are completely foolproof. Several studies have shown that it's impossible to be injured when your partner owns - or even thinks about buying - a Gri-Gri. I trust anybody with a Gri-Gri to belay, even one-armed infants. I attached one to my steering wheel just the other day - and now I don't even have to drive. The Gri-Gri reads my mind and takes me where I want to go! It even picks the routes with the fewest traffic lights. Three cheers for the Gri-Gri! Hip-hip-hooray! Hip-hip-hooray! Hip-hip-hooray!
I would even trust a Gri-Gri in bed with my wife. Speaking of which, someone once told me that the Gri-Gri is effective birth control. Not sure if this is true. Seems dodgy.
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j_ung
Mar 24, 2004, 5:22 PM
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:lol:
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crag
Mar 24, 2004, 8:39 PM
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In reply to: Dude, you obviously don't know what you're talking about...... I would even trust a Gri-Gri in bed with my wife. Speaking of which, someone once told me that the Gri-Gri is effective birth control. Not sure if this is true. Seems dodgy.
Have you seen or perhaps even tested the new Gri-Gri with the Accujack feature? Looking for beta before I commit to this expensive feature.
Will get back to you on the birth control once I've tested my old unit on the wife.
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kungfuclimber
Mar 24, 2004, 8:50 PM
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Alright! Keep beating that horse 'till its a belt!
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coldclimb
Mar 24, 2004, 9:29 PM
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coldclimb moved this thread from General to Gear Heads.
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epic_ed
Mar 24, 2004, 9:41 PM
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Exactly.
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straightedgeteen
Mar 25, 2004, 12:45 AM
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haha of course cause people think that they are idiot proof.... yea right ... far from !
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ctclimbz
Mar 25, 2004, 12:47 AM
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In reply to: Alright! Keep beating that horse 'till its a belt!
I was drinking water, and reading this post made it come out my nose. :lol:
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david.yount
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Mar 25, 2004, 1:05 AM
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I've never witnessed a lowering situation that got dodgy with a GriGri, but I understand how that might happen. I've never heard first hand neither.
I have heard a few first hand accounts of lowering with a tuber device that got out of control. In three stories I heard, the climber being lowered impacted the ground experiencing nearly free fall acceleration. All three needed hostpitalisation. All three belayers were relatively new climbers belaying partners that were significantly heavier. There's an accident report in R&I online involving lowering with tuber device that got out of control.
Perhaps the SBG-II rigged for increased friction may have helped to lessen or prevent these accidents?
I have witnessed lead belaying with GriGri that was dodgy. Belayer keeps 4th and 3rd fingers on right hand lightly gripped on arm of GriGri to allow quick rope feed; climber falls totally unexpectedly; before belayer releases fingers from arm of GriGri lead climber falls 10-feet to 20-feet excessively.
And several years ago at Smith Rock a belayer was talking with a small group about the safety of using GriGri, he was demonstrating how to pay out rope quickly, he was paying out lots a rope...... his partner was on some 5.12 about 60-feet up with much space between bolts..... the leader fell and expected a long ride..... but what he didn't know is his jackass belayer had fed over 15 additional feet of slack.... Well, no damage, leader re-composed very quickly while hanging and finished the route.
David.
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dietzpa
Mar 25, 2004, 2:12 AM
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all i have to say is god bless the drawing on the gri gri. im sure its saved a dozen or so lives, hopefully not mine (i trust my belayer)
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slacklinejoe
Mar 25, 2004, 7:18 PM
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The horse is dead and has been sent off to become someones new loafers and some glue kids will eat.
I'll toss in my 2 cents to add tassle to that poor slobs loafers: Even though I've always used an ATC I got a Gri-Gri the other week, knowing well in advance many of the potential issues with the device.
My feeling so far is that it encourages sloppy belaying, but is otherwise safe if you have ever learned respect for belaying. I agree with the note that it should be treated like a tube belay device that just so happens to have an autolock. One note of concern I had was at my gym where I picked it up, they admitted that three people working there that evening had never looked at the instructions or such.
I didn't think much of it until I noticed that a lot of the guys working the gym belayed with the slack straight in front of the Gri-Gri instead of over the friction side like a normal belay device (per the instructions). That and they frequently take off their belay hand for extended times and almost always held down on the cam lock to pay out lots of slack even when a slow pull would have sufficed. These guys are really safe about everything else and seem to really know their stuff, but I think the Gri-Gri gives them a little too much feeling of invulnrability.
As far as "PSAs" I tend to agree, a search provided tons of these type of comments.
When in doubt "RTFM"
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tedc
Mar 25, 2004, 7:36 PM
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In reply to: ..... someone once told me that the Gri-Gri is effective birth control. Not sure if this is true. Seems dodgy.
Only effective for diameters from 9.8-11mm; and I must say, I fall outside that range. Not saying to whick side I fall. :oops: :D .
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tedc
Mar 25, 2004, 7:45 PM
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In reply to: I've never witnessed a lowering situation that got dodgy with a GriGri, but I understand how that might happen. I've never heard first hand neither..
Here is a second hand story for you. I let a good friend (but first time belayer; never used a ATC or Gri-Gri before) lower me from an easy TR in the gym. He was practicing so he could belay his kid. I sat back on the locked off Gri-Gri...he pulled the lever (all the way back) and woooosh down I come. Fortunately, I was directly above him and so when he put his hands up to keep from getting hit in the head the lever moved back, gri-gri locked, and I came screeching to a stop; butt 6" of the deck. And his butt 6' off the deck. I think he learned his lesson. Damn I'm a good teacher.
Oh yea, I learned my lesson too.
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acacongua
Mar 25, 2004, 8:21 PM
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Things I've seen with lowering on a gri-gri is that someone way lite is belaying someone way heavy. I dropped a guy about 5 ft because he outweighed me by 130lbs (he was TRing). I was just learning how to use a gri-gri, btw and this was three years ago. I saw the same situation recently when a skinny 10-year-old girl was lowering her father.
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rocket
Mar 25, 2004, 8:24 PM
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To me the key is: Who is my belayer? Do they keep too much rope in or keep too much slack out? What they use is not the issue, to me. I prefer to be belayed by someone who is paying attention to the situation - the climb and not the hottie, the dog, or scratching his butt.
If they use the ATC, GriGri, or munster hitch - isn't the point. They can all be misused and lead to trouble. I believe that the gri-gri is so full proof (to a point) that people become complacent in their belays.
Choose your belayer wisely, not their belay device.
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