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reedcrr
Apr 7, 2004, 7:48 AM
Post #51 of 60
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Question: Was his guide hand burned?...no his brake hand was..so bad to the point that you could use his hand to channel water if you wanted. In comparisoin to my tweaked ankles and piss poor attitude he came out the worse on this one. Not only did he feel really bad for dropping me but he had severly burned his hand in to the muscle tissue that you can still see the scar and the indent years later.
All said, however the fall happened I now take extra measure to insure the rope never get's dirty and I clean my Gri-Gri on a regular basis.
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socalclimber
Apr 7, 2004, 1:03 PM
Post #52 of 60
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reedcrr:
Look, I know you are far superior to me, you made that very clear in your post. Let's not get into a huge pissing match.
It's really simple, yes, gear does fail from time to time. Most of the time it's the people who fail. I hear this nonsense about one device being more safe than another. I hear about people decking all the time, and I hear about how that wouldn't happen with a Gri Gri. It's trash. People need to pay more attention. Period. We are all guilty of this at one time or another.
We just had a bad accident last month were the belayer lowered the climber off the end of the rope. It was both parties responsibilty to keep this from happening. Fortunately the climber is ok. Unless you are soloing, climbing is a partnership.
P.S. Oh, and by the way, nice thread about Kilo Newtons and force. It was very well layed out.
Robert
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reedcrr
Apr 7, 2004, 6:10 PM
Post #53 of 60
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Social climber:
Wow, when I read your post I went back and read my last post again...man I am such an A**hole! Accept my apologies for being so abrupt...not my intention and I am not like that at all. I think I responded with that post late at night after a bad day. Again sorry...
Jay has posted on this topic many times and has been very insightful also, Again what you stated on your last post is the crux of this thread, don't take crap for granted, s**t happens and devices as simple as a mechanical belay device can fail. Although this does not happen very often, mainly it is operator error.
For all those looking in to this post I am in no way bashing the Gri-Gri or telling you not to use one...I endorse the product and still use one myself. As a matter of fact the next day after my fall I was back on the rock and the person belaying me was using A Gri-Gri. I trust them, I just have more respect for them now...thanks.
Side note: The newton post has become an entity in and of itself and has become a pissing match, I have posted my thoughts and it appears that some people don't agree with me :( but the main point is people are discussing the topic of factor falls and the physics behind the mechanical systems we put together on the rock, I just got the ball rolling 8) . Some posts are way out there and others are right on but at least people are talking. For the most part climbers are really smart people who on occasion do some really dumb things.
Have Fun and Climb Hard!
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jeffo
Apr 7, 2004, 6:49 PM
Post #54 of 60
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Registered: Oct 9, 2003
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i am a nobody...but you have an attitude that gives climbers a bad name. I hate meeting other climbers with your kind of attitude...you make it miserable for others to break into the sport and you are one of those who thinks they know it all....if what your saying is true then there should be no accidents ever....that is wrong. People should hear about the dangers of using a gri gri and this is the place to have those discussions, so that the more experienced climbers can teach the new climbers about safety. If you see a post that you think has been beaten to death.....dont respond to it.
Thanks.
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catbird_seat
Apr 7, 2004, 6:55 PM
Post #55 of 60
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Here is what I don't like about the GriGri. The brake hand COULD, in theory, act as a backup to the cam, but in practice it can't. The hand that would normally be your guide hand is being used to activate the lever to let rope out. The hand that should be your brake hand is not always on the tail, instead, it is pulling rope out on the climber's side of the rope. If the climber falls and the cam fails to engage for any reason, your brake hand isn't there to lock off. I think I will just stick with my ATC, thank you. With the GriGri you are utterly dependent on the proper functioning of a complex piece of equipment. If it fails, the leader craters.
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moondog
Apr 7, 2004, 8:07 PM
Post #56 of 60
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Registered: Nov 25, 2002
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In reply to: Here is what I don't like about the GriGri. The brake hand COULD, in theory, act as a backup to the cam, but in practice it can't. The hand that would normally be your guide hand is being used to activate the lever to let rope out.
This post raises an interesting possibility. Note that the method described above is expressly forbidden in the Grigri technical notice because of the increased probability of accident if the climber falls when the cam is blocked.
If a belayer uses the brake hand to pull rope out (blocking the cam with the guide hand - bad method as described above), then it is possible that the brake hand could be burned in an accident by holding the wrong end of the rope. This could lead to a wrong assumption that the belayer was doing his best to stop the fall, but was in fact causing it.
I do not mean to imply that this is what happened in reedcrr's incident, just something to think about.
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camsticker
Apr 7, 2004, 8:37 PM
Post #57 of 60
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http://www.rockclimbing.com/forums/viewtopic.php?p=699301#699301
see how gri gri saved ammon from more serious injuries!
Ivan
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jt512
Apr 7, 2004, 9:26 PM
Post #58 of 60
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Registered: Apr 12, 2001
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In reply to: Here is what I don't like about the GriGri. The brake hand COULD, in theory, act as a backup to the cam, but in practice it can't. The hand that would normally be your guide hand is being used to activate the lever to let rope out. The hand that should be your brake hand is not always on the tail, instead, it is pulling rope out on the climber's side of the rope. If the climber falls and the cam fails to engage for any reason, your brake hand isn't there to lock off. I think I will just stick with my ATC, thank you. With the GriGri you are utterly dependent on the proper functioning of a complex piece of equipment. If it fails, the leader craters.
As moondog has pointed out, the method of operating the grigri you describe is not, at present, recommended by Petzl. Instead, when you have to yard out slack for a clip, Petzl recommends that you hold the cam open with your brake hand and yard out slack with your guide hand. You still have to let go of the brake side of the rope. If the leader falls while clipping, you must get your brake hand back on the rope right away. It is important, though rarely done, to practice this until it becomes reflex.
-Jay
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alpnclmbr1
Apr 7, 2004, 9:57 PM
Post #59 of 60
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[quote="jt512"] I've heard a couple of claims of old grigris becoming worn and not catching well. On the other hand, one of my partners has a very early model grigri, which he has used extensively. He's worn a channel in the lip of the grigri from lowering; nonetheless, the device routinely catches falls on 9.4 mm ropes, which are below the minimum diameter that grigris are designed for. Consequently, I don't know what to make of claims of worn grigris not catching people (on gym ropes, no less).
In reply to: I wore out two grigri's over 4 years of full time climbing. They were both worn out from normal wear and tear. i.e the rope flange was nearly worn through. It would still work if used properly. When it would fail a pull test with a worn 10mm rope, it was time to be retired for sure. I do a pull test on the grigri almost everytime I put someone on belay.
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socalclimber
Apr 8, 2004, 12:03 PM
Post #60 of 60
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Registered: Nov 27, 2001
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reedcrr:
Not a problem, appology accepted. Hey I was a bit salty too! It's all good!
Robert
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