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data118
Nov 9, 2003, 6:49 PM
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Great idea. I actuaclly thought about something like tghis before, marking up the cams.
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one900johnnyk
Nov 9, 2003, 9:05 PM
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link?
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one900johnnyk
Nov 9, 2003, 9:11 PM
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i can't get their site to work now, what are they?
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nikdemeis
Nov 9, 2003, 10:11 PM
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All i saw was a real brief thing on the web about them not much detail do you have anymore info on them?
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vram1974
Nov 9, 2003, 10:19 PM
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It's making trad climbing more accessible and idiot-proof... hell, it's a damn good idea for the sketchy beginner placements.
I met the guy who invented the idea last month by chance. He lives and guides in North Conway, NH.
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vram1974
Nov 9, 2003, 10:23 PM
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Oh, for those asking what they are, it's simple:
There are three markings on the inner camheads. You will see green if the cams are optimally placed, yellow if it's sketchy, or full-on red if you are placing a really bad cam.
I'm a little bit on the fence about the universal application of it, because we all know that the cam range in limestone and granite are as different as night and day. A yellow range placement in granite is probably gonna fail in limestone.
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scclimber
Nov 9, 2003, 10:50 PM
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In reply to: It's making trad climbing more accessible and idiot-proof... hell, it's a damn good idea for the sketchy beginner placements.
just because you have the right size cam doesn't mean it is a great placement, does it?
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tanner
Nov 10, 2003, 12:01 AM
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I think the Idea of trying to make trad climbing safer this way is only giving people a false sense of securaty. Learn to place cams from an experiance person and your good to.
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adamtd
Nov 10, 2003, 3:46 AM
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It's a great idea, and an excellent teaching tool. I would say that by the time someone is leading on pro though, they should know how to assess their cam placements without the colored dots. Plus, if you practice enough, you can grab the right piece the first time, everytime. I say just practice instead of relying on paint that'll probably scratch off anyway. As I said, It is a great teaching tool if you're teaching beginners.
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jimdavis
Nov 10, 2003, 12:33 PM
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It looks to me like Metolius thinks you can't Over-Cam those...the green dots go all the way back on those cam lobes.
Am I the only one to notice this?
Jim
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one900johnnyk
Nov 10, 2003, 12:57 PM
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no i thought of that but they're worried about safety, not losing a cam...
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data118
Nov 10, 2003, 2:32 PM
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In reply to: It looks to me like Metolius thinks you can't Over-Cam those...the green dots go all the way back on those cam lobes. Am I the only one to notice this? Jim
Yes, the cam in the picture is obvisouly over cammed (the red dots on both lobes are in contact and the green dots on both lobes do not over lap). Without reading the instructions, I think the "ideal range" is in the green, i.e., the green dots on the front-left lobe overlaps the green dots on the right lobe. When the green dots on the left front left lobe overlaps the yellow dots on th eright lobe, it is slighlt out of "ideal" range.
You following me?
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data118
Nov 10, 2003, 2:33 PM
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In reply to: no i thought of that but they're worried about safety, not losing a cam...
Over cammed units can pop out just as easily.
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ramylson
Nov 10, 2003, 3:07 PM
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Honestly, I think this is a terrible idea. You're now going to have a lot of people without the proper knowledge in placing protection, in this case.. cams, thinking that they're save. What about flaring cracks? Well, the cam is in the green, so I must be good.. etc. There's just so much more in the equation on this stuff that I feel it's giving people false security. That's just me though..
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jimdavis
Nov 10, 2003, 8:24 PM
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I think it's just a marketing thing. Same thing as the Metolius Safe-Tech harness.
I think anybody who wants this marking on their cams could just put a sticker on them. I don't think camming range is that hard to identify to the average person and paying for some paint seems stupid to me.
I think they'd be better off making a cam that has springs that resist being under-cammed, and a marking on the stem or something that keeps your cam's from getting over-cammed while placing them.
On the flip side, since they say over-camming is cool (with the green dots) i'm willing to bet that a lot of people will start getting their cam's stuck, which means guys like me that will work on a getting a piece of pro out for 2+ hours, will find a lot more cams to booty. So in that sense, I hope they sell like hot-cakes.
But if people are willing to buy them, you can't blame Metolius for making them.
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crotch
Nov 10, 2003, 8:35 PM
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In reply to: On the flip side, since they say over-camming is cool (with the green dots) i'm willing to bet that a lot of people will start getting their cam's stuck, which means guys like me that will work on a getting a piece of pro out for 2+ hours, will find a lot more cams to booty. So in that sense, I hope they sell like hot-cakes.
Yeah man. The first thing I thought of when I saw them was more booty for me. I pity the fool that relies on the dots to make a placement.
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boz84
Nov 10, 2003, 8:50 PM
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In reply to: I think it's just a marketing thing. Same thing as the Metolius Safe-Tech harness.
I think your incorrect in saying that the ideas behind the safe-tech harnesses are just "marketing". A lot of them make damn good sense, and at least they are a step forward to helping the problems that HAVE CONTRIBUTED to injuries and deaths in the past. To say that that is just marketting, is ignorant. Hell, and even if it is.. they are still marketting a safer harness, so why the hell not?
Things like the obviously webbing color to ensure that you double pas your buckle is clearly a good idea. But since YOU are such an expert climber, and NEVER forget to do anything, I guess you wouldn't need it. Regardless, tyhere are thousands of climbers all around the world, and some of us actually do forget stuff like that, and if no one checks us out.....
Full strength gear loops are also a bonus, in any way you look at it. Why the hell not? 2000+ llb strength spectra sounds a lot better than the molded plastic on most harnesses.
WHatever, back onto the original topic... but some of you need to open your ass wide enough to be able to speak clearly next time.
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ramylson
Nov 10, 2003, 8:56 PM
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Certain point on their harnesses are nice. And, from owning a Metolious harness currently, it's a solid product. But, I question the full strength gear loops. It's good idea.. I still don't like it. I've seen enough issues in the gyms, and out at the crags, where people are actually tying into their gear loops. Sure, it's making the product "safer" (even though I don't feel that's the case w/ their cams), but at what cost? It's almost like their saying you can just take their product and go. That you don't need to know all of the knowledge behind the principles that we use while out at the crags. As an end result, I think we'll see more accidents as a result.
Just my opinion of course..
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inflight
Nov 10, 2003, 9:04 PM
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Overall, I think it is a great idea. I always look at the crack shape, the point of contact the lobes make with the rock and how cammed the unit is so having a definitive mark makes my evaluation efficient.
They should remove some of the green dots at the top of the lobes since it will lead to a jammed cam.
How it will impact the climbing population is speculation. There are no substitutes for professional instruction and no safety features in the form of reminders and placement guides can replace it. Hopefully, newcomers will realize this early on.
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deleted
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Nov 10, 2003, 9:24 PM
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cool!!!!!
now that these cams are out, i'm going to stop trad climbing until someone starts putting colored tape on the routes so i know where the hell to go!
climbing is sooo scary.
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boz84
Nov 10, 2003, 9:26 PM
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In reply to: Certain point on their harnesses are nice. And, from owning a Metolious harness currently, it's a solid product. But, I question the full strength gear loops. It's good idea.. I still don't like it. I've seen enough issues in the gyms, and out at the crags, where people are actually tying into their gear loops. Sure, it's making the product "safer" (even though I don't feel that's the case w/ their cams), but at what cost? It's almost like their saying you can just take their product and go. That you don't need to know all of the knowledge behind the principles that we use while out at the crags. As an end result, I think we'll see more accidents as a result. Just my opinion of course..
i think you are alooking at it completely backwards. Metolius definitely does NOT condone the use of their products in absence of proper training by qualified and experiecned people. At the same time, however, I feel that they are making many positive steps forwards in gear design. We ALL make mistakes, unfortunately, and it is through these mistakes that we are injured and killed.
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dynoguy
Nov 10, 2003, 9:32 PM
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do you pay extra for the paint?
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cedk
Nov 10, 2003, 9:53 PM
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Hopefully as they phase these in I can pick up some of the old just as safe design cheap.
What about the silver TCUs? They'll have 2 dots. One red one green.
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inflight
Nov 10, 2003, 10:08 PM
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In reply to: Hopefully as they phase these in I can pick up some of the old just as safe design cheap. What about the silver TCUs? They'll have 2 dots. One red one green.
Good point and kinda funny. I don't think the dots will be useful in the smaller cams. They should not even bother doting cams #00-5. The tolerances are too small.
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