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Lazlo
Feb 11, 2013, 1:56 PM
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Can anyone help me find info or an article on the laws concerning pirate guiding?
Thank you!
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gblauer
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Feb 11, 2013, 2:27 PM
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I would imagine it's geographically specific.
Do pirates really like to be guided?
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Gmburns2000
Feb 11, 2013, 2:56 PM
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Arghhh...me thinks ya need ta talk ta tha others who a doin it argghhh...
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JimTitt
Feb 11, 2013, 4:28 PM
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gblauer wrote: I would imagine it's geographically specific. Do pirates really like to be guided?
Our Pirate Party in Germany certainly needs some guidance, they´ve even less idea of reality than usual! http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pirate_Party
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iknowfear
Feb 11, 2013, 6:21 PM
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JimTitt wrote: gblauer wrote: I would imagine it's geographically specific. Do pirates really like to be guided? Our Pirate Party in Germany certainly needs some guidance, they´ve even less idea of reality than usual! http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pirate_Party
hey, let me help out
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shuffleboardfan
Feb 11, 2013, 8:14 PM
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A pirate walks into a bar with a steering wheel sticking out of his pants.
The bar tender looks at him and asks "what's the deal, isn't that incredibly uncomfortable?"
The pirate replies, "ARRGggh it's driving me nuts."
OP: What the heck is pirate guiding?
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petsfed
Feb 11, 2013, 8:20 PM
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Pirate guiding, I assume, is guiding without the appropriate permit/insurance to do so in a given area, or without agreeing to give a cut to the land owner.
I think its a shitty practice, so (since the rest of the thread will be about how to do it), that's the extent of my input.
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USnavy
Feb 12, 2013, 9:17 AM
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petsfed wrote: I think its a shitty practice, so (since the rest of the thread will be about how to do it), that's the extent of my input.
However, there is more than just the issue of monopolies, cost and quality. There is an issue of freedom. As in, I should be free to hire whoever the hell I want. Who the hell is the government to tell me that if I want to go rock climbing I absolutely have to hire company X and I cannot hire company Y? That runs directly contrary to the entire foundation America is laid upon--capitalism, freedom and democracy. When the government starts making our choices for us, we normally call that totalitarianism.
(This post was edited by USnavy on Feb 12, 2013, 9:24 AM)
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ObviousTroll
Feb 12, 2013, 1:19 PM
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USnavy wrote: petsfed wrote: I think its a shitty practice, so (since the rest of the thread will be about how to do it), that's the extent of my input. Why? Did you know that the current rate for a guided trip up the Nose is about $4,600? Did you also know that DNC pockets about $2,000 of that? That is what happens when you have a government-sanctioned monopoly at work. The prices jump and (most often, but not in this case) the quality drops. However, there is more than just the issue of monopolies, cost and quality. There is an issue of freedom. As in, I should be free to hire whoever the hell I want. Who the hell is the government to tell me that if I want to go rock climbing I absolutely have to hire company X and I cannot hire company Y? That runs directly contrary to the entire foundation America is laid upon--capitalism, freedom and democracy. When the government starts making our choices for us, we normally call that totalitarianism.
EEEK! Somebody with a brain hijacked USNavy's account.
Musta been a pirate. Hey but seriously, I agree here entirely. Licenses help a person understand qualifications of their guide, but what if I'm not worried about their qualifications? after all- were the first rock and mountain guides amga certified? Of course not.
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Lazlo
Feb 12, 2013, 1:35 PM
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Arrrrg! Thanks Marc for the link. I ended up emailing the National Forest.
....I'm still down for anything online if anyone knows where I can find it.
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happiegrrrl
Feb 12, 2013, 7:11 PM
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Many land managers have guidelines specific to the area they manage. I don't know if there are "laws" regarding the practice specifically, but assume it falls under "no commercial activity without permit" rules within the NPS.
As a professional guide(according to your Etsy profile as linked in your sig), I wonder why you would feel a need to ask rc.gum about the practice, though.
Also....checked out you sig link to Etsy shop, thinking maybe you might like to be on the Etsy Climbers Team but I see you have your shop in "Vacation Mode" and are directing people to buy your product elsewhere....
Maybe you might want to check out Etsy's guidelines about pirate selling within their platform... 
(This post was edited by happiegrrrl on Feb 12, 2013, 7:13 PM)
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wonderwoman
Feb 12, 2013, 7:30 PM
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Lazlo wrote: I ended up emailing the National Forest.
Have you heard back from the trees yet?
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petsfed
Feb 12, 2013, 8:45 PM
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USnavy wrote: However, there is more than just the issue of monopolies, cost and quality. There is an issue of freedom. As in, I should be free to hire whoever the hell I want. Who the hell is the government to tell me that if I want to go rock climbing I absolutely have to hire company X and I cannot hire company Y?
By and large, licensing works to guarantee that the guide company pays a cut. I pay taxes on public land. Presumably you do too. If somebody is making money off of that public land without paying for it themselves, then they are getting an REI-dividend-style discount on their taxes. That shit pisses me off. If I have to pay for it, then sure as fuck the guy who has to spend 10 times as much time out there as me has to pay for it.
I don't give a shit about insurance, safety certifications, or any of that horseshit. I think the fact that only 2 companies were allowed to guide Rainier for decades is fucked up. But if you make money off of public lands, you have to pay, whether you're guiding clients or grazing cattle.
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happiegrrrl
Feb 12, 2013, 9:21 PM
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Interesting perspective, Petsfed, and I'm sure one shared by many, though not myself.
The reason I support a land manager requiring permits for guiding is that they DO tend to choose vendors who are qualified.Can you imagine how many rc.com year-in leaders would feel they could "be a guide" and gumby up the cliffs with their clients if there were no permit process?
I also think the land managers DO tend to limit the number so as not to have guide services completely overgrazing the climbing pastures, so to speak. Sometimes it does seem like the guides and groups are everywhere at destination crags, but with just a little effort on the part of ourselves, we can usually find plenty to climb.
Even so - personally, I have no qualms against hiring someone who is pirate guiding. I haven't hired a guide in some years, but let's say I wanted to get a ride up the Nose(I would some day, but at the rate I am going I don't think I will be able to fully pull my own weight on a team any time soon)...
If I knew someone, or knew of someone, who was not on the registered list, but I trusted as being experienced and competent, I think I would probably rather pay them under the portaledge than go to the official service. Though I suppose if I could pay a pirate I could pay one of the Yosemite Climbing School (or whatever it is called) guides.
My way of thinking is an alternate one...but I do sort of subscribe to the "Rules are made for people who need rules" branch of living.
For instance - if someone isn't competent to know what a competent guide is - rules that qualify their choices makes sense to me. Or if someone who IS guiding doesn't have enough sense to know what is required of a guide - rules are good.
Of course - if EVERYONE felt and behaved that way, the world would be in a shambles! But that is because so damned MANY people DO need rules to stop them from doing stupid and damaging things.
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petsfed
Feb 13, 2013, 3:11 AM
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happiegrrrl wrote: Even so - personally, I have no qualms against hiring someone who is pirate guiding. I haven't hired a guide in some years, but let's say I wanted to get a ride up the Nose(I would some day, but at the rate I am going I don't think I will be able to fully pull my own weight on a team any time soon)...
This is a scenario where I'd be willing to pay in gas, or beer, or food, or some combo of the three, because that starts to feel like an equitable partnership. There is an implicit point in that partnership where that goes both ways. But if your living is doing this, and you're taking money over all else, then the land owner deserves a cut.
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caughtinside
Feb 13, 2013, 3:23 AM
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Pirate guiding is really just guides undercutting other guides. You know, the guys paying for insurance, maintaining relationships with the land management, and staying certified.
If I were a n00b and wanted to get guided up somehting I had no business being on, I wouldn't do it without insurance. Even if the pirate has insurance, it wouldn't cover illegal guiding.
Throwing a few bucks to a ropegun to do something just out of reach is different in the cultural context of climbing in my opinion.
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olderic
Feb 13, 2013, 4:03 AM
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Lots more info needed from the OP. Private land?- public land? - NPS? NFS? BLM? State Park? "Laws"? - Federal? State? local? "Pirate"? = no permit? No fee paid? Not Certified?
You sound as though you have a not-so-hidden agenda.
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guangzhou
Feb 13, 2013, 4:41 AM
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Pirate guiding, poaching when I was a guide, doesn't necessarily mean the guide isn't qualified or doesn't insurance.
He could just be guiding somewhere that he has not been issues a permit for.
Technically speaking, many of today's outdoor rec programs with schools are doing just that. Some just because they don't even know they are suppose to apply for a permit.
I've held permits for Federal Land, all they want to see is proof of insurance really. AFter that, you pay a percentage of your fees on a guide day basis.
A guide day is basically one person for one day. If I am guiding one person I pay a fee for one person. If I am guiding two people in the same party, I pay a fee for two.
Poaching in America is much more complicated than many countries. A lot of climbing areas are on private properties.
Many land owners don't accept money because they become liable if something happen under various state recreation laws. (Attraction clauses with bolts sometimes too)
One private area I guided in, the owner wanted no money and wanted no knowledge of what I was charging. Once a year, my guide service would donate money towards his property taxes. We even help a fundraising bbq one year.
If certification meant I could guide on any federal or state land, I would support mandatory guide certification programs like a lot of Europe. Because a guide has to deal with each climbing area separately, I don't.
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USnavy
Feb 13, 2013, 6:19 AM
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petsfed wrote: USnavy wrote: However, there is more than just the issue of monopolies, cost and quality. There is an issue of freedom. As in, I should be free to hire whoever the hell I want. Who the hell is the government to tell me that if I want to go rock climbing I absolutely have to hire company X and I cannot hire company Y? By and large, licensing works to guarantee that the guide company pays a cut. I pay taxes on public land. Presumably you do too. If somebody is making money off of that public land without paying for it themselves, then they are getting an REI-dividend-style discount on their taxes. That shit pisses me off. If I have to pay for it, then sure as fuck the guy who has to spend 10 times as much time out there as me has to pay for it. I don't give a shit about insurance, safety certifications, or any of that horseshit. I think the fact that only 2 companies were allowed to guide Rainier for decades is fucked up. But if you make money off of public lands, you have to pay, whether you're guiding clients or grazing cattle.
(This post was edited by USnavy on Feb 13, 2013, 6:24 AM)
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Gmburns2000
Feb 13, 2013, 11:52 AM
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USnavy wrote: petsfed wrote: USnavy wrote: However, there is more than just the issue of monopolies, cost and quality. There is an issue of freedom. As in, I should be free to hire whoever the hell I want. Who the hell is the government to tell me that if I want to go rock climbing I absolutely have to hire company X and I cannot hire company Y? By and large, licensing works to guarantee that the guide company pays a cut. I pay taxes on public land. Presumably you do too. If somebody is making money off of that public land without paying for it themselves, then they are getting an REI-dividend-style discount on their taxes. That shit pisses me off. If I have to pay for it, then sure as fuck the guy who has to spend 10 times as much time out there as me has to pay for it. I don't give a shit about insurance, safety certifications, or any of that horseshit. I think the fact that only 2 companies were allowed to guide Rainier for decades is fucked up. But if you make money off of public lands, you have to pay, whether you're guiding clients or grazing cattle. Sure, I agree that if a land use tax exists, everyone should pay it. But creating a guiding monopoly is the most idiotic possible solution to solving that issue. It is entirely possible for the NPS to say that any company can guide in Yosemite, and every company has to pay a land use tax. But they dont do that. Instead they say that only DNC can control the public-use assets in Yosemite. How that is even legal is beyond me. I am rather surprised no one has sued the NPS over that yet.
It's the same thing in RMNP. I assume in quite a few other parks, too.
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Lazlo
Feb 13, 2013, 12:55 PM
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wonderwoman wrote: Lazlo wrote: I ended up emailing the National Forest. Have you heard back from the trees yet?
I have not. I will check back when I do though.
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Lazlo
Feb 13, 2013, 12:59 PM
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caughtinside wrote: Pirate guiding is really just guides undercutting other guides. You know, the guys paying for insurance, maintaining relationships with the land management, and staying certified. If I were a n00b and wanted to get guided up somehting I had no business being on, I wouldn't do it without insurance. Even if the pirate has insurance, it wouldn't cover illegal guiding. Throwing a few bucks to a ropegun to do something just out of reach is different in the cultural context of climbing in my opinion.
I couldn't have said that better myself.
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