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nb_boarder16
May 2, 2008, 4:08 AM
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Ok, so my roomate and I were discussing the movie 'Touching the Void' the other day and wanted some climbers input on one part we didn't understand.
In the movie, when the guy is hanging over the ledge and his partner cuts him loose because he couldn't get around the knot in the middle of the two ropes (he wasn't at the end of his rope if you pay attention to the dialogue), why wasn't he able to escape his belay and let him down the last 150'?!
So far we've come up with two ways to do this, the simpler version involving just tying off the rope to his harness and switching sides of the knot and the other using a prusik cord to take the weight while he switches. I would think a climber in 'alpine shape' would be able to temporarily take the weight off the rope long enough to take the belay device off.
What do you think?! Could he have avoided cutting the rope with simple self-rescue skills? Is the movie misrepresenting the situation? Does this make sense to anyone?!
(No harrassment please. I'm not trying to belittle what they went through, it just seems curious...)
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dingus
May 2, 2008, 4:14 AM
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AS I recall from the book he was near the end of the rope. Yates was perched on a deteriorating snow ledge scooped out of the slope with no anchor. He held him for something like an hour, all the while his situation getting worse. There was no movement on the rope. He finally thought or convinced himself he had no choice and he cut the rope.
Cheers
DMT
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bwat
May 2, 2008, 5:10 AM
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I am trying to imagine doing what you are suggesting. But with the rope fully weighted by the guy hanging off the cliff and belayer not being anchored – it seems risky and impossible.
The tie off to the harness wouldn't work. Say you let go of the brake and let the knot pressure hold the weight against the belay plate. Using the free 150ft to tie into your harness, you would have to tie close to the knot because as soon as you were able to get the knot free of the plate the rope would snap tight in the slack between the knot and your harness tie off – successfully pulling you off the mountain. That all only happens if and only if you can get the belay biner free from the fully weighted rope in the first place.
I could see the prusik trick possibly working – but still seems sketchy. Prusik out in front of the Belay device, grabs rope enough to unclip and free knot. Reclip and continue. It sounds so easy when you are not dying as you slowly freeze and you support 200+ pounds hanging off the edge of a mountain while sitting in snow that is melting as you slide down the side. :)
Now what he needed was 2 belay devices! A pre and a post knot device.
I'm sure if there were internet forums back when it happened it would have been debated into the ground.
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majid_sabet
May 2, 2008, 5:16 AM
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tell me how you had done it
(This post was edited by majid_sabet on May 2, 2008, 6:47 AM)
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Myxomatosis
May 2, 2008, 5:18 AM
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In reply to: Now what he needed was 2 belay devices! A pre and a post knot device.
In no way am I judging there actions from a arm chair, I would have done the same thing and expected it from my partner to cut me as well.
But he could have possiably grabbed the belay device from his partner before they started to rappel down the mountian, in the event the knot some how got snagged into his one, could have changed it easily.
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majid_sabet
May 2, 2008, 5:19 AM
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bwat wrote: I am trying to imagine doing what you are suggesting. But with the rope fully weighted by the guy hanging off the cliff and belayer not being anchored – it seems risky and impossible. The tie off to the harness wouldn't work. Say you let go of the brake and let the knot pressure hold the weight against the belay plate. Using the free 150ft to tie into your harness, you would have to tie close to the knot because as soon as you were able to get the knot free of the plate the rope would snap tight in the slack between the knot and your harness tie off – successfully pulling you off the mountain. That all only happens if and only if you can get the belay biner free from the fully weighted rope in the first place. I could see the prusik trick possibly working – but still seems sketchy. Prusik out in front of the Belay device, grabs rope enough to unclip and free knot. Reclip and continue. It sounds so easy when you are not dying as you slowly freeze and you support 200+ pounds hanging off the edge of a mountain while sitting in snow that is melting as you slide down the side. :) Now what he needed was 2 belay devices! A pre and a post knot device. I'm sure if there were internet forums back when it happened it would have been debated into the ground. |
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curt
May 2, 2008, 6:26 AM
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bwat wrote: I am trying to imagine doing what you are suggesting. But with the rope fully weighted by the guy hanging off the cliff and belayer not being anchored – it seems risky and impossible. The tie off to the harness wouldn't work. Say you let go of the brake and let the knot pressure hold the weight against the belay plate. Using the free 150ft to tie into your harness, you would have to tie close to the knot because as soon as you were able to get the knot free of the plate the rope would snap tight in the slack between the knot and your harness tie off – successfully pulling you off the mountain. That all only happens if and only if you can get the belay biner free from the fully weighted rope in the first place. I could see the prusik trick possibly working – but still seems sketchy. Prusik out in front of the Belay device, grabs rope enough to unclip and free knot. Reclip and continue. It sounds so easy when you are not dying as you slowly freeze and you support 200+ pounds hanging off the edge of a mountain while sitting in snow that is melting as you slide down the side. :) Now what he needed was 2 belay devices! A pre and a post knot device. I'm sure if there were internet forums back when it happened it would have been debated into the ground.
The problem, as Dingus has already mentioned, is that there was no anchor.
Curt
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dingus
May 2, 2008, 3:19 PM
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The other thing to remember is they were in a white out, had been going for somethlihg 36 hours, had summited and were coming back down (I think) when the accident happened. This would have been the last lower after 10 or a dozen or more.
They were already at the end of a very long and thin rope, if you'll pardon the euphemism. Spindrift avalanches were hitting Yates in the back, constantly. His snow stance was slowing falling apart.
There is absolutely no reason not to accept the word of both climbers - had Yates done any thing other than cut the rope they would have both perished.
The only 'fault' is you must call it that - was in not going back to look for the body.
Cheers
DMT
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kachoong
May 2, 2008, 3:47 PM
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nb_boarder16 wrote: Ok, so my roomate and I were discussing the movie 'Touching the Void' the other day and wanted some climbers input on one part we didn't understand. In the movie, when the guy is hanging over the ledge and his partner cuts him loose because he couldn't get around the knot in the middle of the two ropes (he wasn't at the end of his rope if you pay attention to the dialogue), why wasn't he able to escape his belay and let him down the last 150'?! So far we've come up with two ways to do this, the simpler version involving just tying off the rope to his harness and switching sides of the knot and the other using a prusik cord to take the weight while he switches. I would think a climber in 'alpine shape' would be able to temporarily take the weight off the rope long enough to take the belay device off. What do you think?! Could he have avoided cutting the rope with simple self-rescue skills? Is the movie misrepresenting the situation? Does this make sense to anyone?! (No harrassment please. I'm not trying to belittle what they went through, it just seems curious...)
Have you read the book?
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shockabuku
May 2, 2008, 3:51 PM
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That's such a powerful story when you read it.
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WVUCLMBR
May 2, 2008, 4:01 PM
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My method involves 3 midgets, a giant boulder and a helicopter:
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dingus
May 2, 2008, 4:45 PM
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You guys are beautiful!
My method would have to involve 2 Mules for Sister Sarah:
(I never got the whole burro thing - is that just me?)
DMT
(This post was edited by dingus on May 2, 2008, 4:46 PM)
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elholando
May 2, 2008, 6:12 PM
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I thought about Yates using a prusik as a means of belay escape, but when Joe went over the edge he wasn't expecting it and the rope was paying out extremely fast. I just assumed that the knot was then jammed into his belay device, and so there was absolutely no way he could weight a prusik because he wasn't able to pay out any rope. I don't know that for sure obviously, but it wouldn't have been an issue prior because he was taking all of his weight off the rope. He had to cut the rope....however just look down into the damn crevasse and yell for a couple of minutes. I would have hugged him and said,"That's for cutting the rope." Then I would have sunk my ice axe into his back and said,"That's for not looking for me jackass!" I like his response to why he didn't,"It just didn't occur to me." No, I have not read the book, so perhaps that would explain better why he didn't take a few minutes to look for Joe.
(This post was edited by elholando on May 2, 2008, 6:12 PM)
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swaghole
May 2, 2008, 7:01 PM
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If I remember correctly from the book, the knot was used to join 2 full length ropes, so it was possible to lower the injured guy one full length of rope before having to deal wit the knot. In perfect conditions (mental and physical) they could have rigged a munter mule prussik BEFORE starting the lower. That would have made passing the knot possible if the lowering was more then a full rope's length . Of course, hind sight is 20/20. You can't pass judgement on what they could or should have done.
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wmfork
May 2, 2008, 7:46 PM
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This is a case of everything being simple in theory and quite difficult in practice, especially in less than ideal condition.
Simpson had the option of prussic the rope but couldn't (which, in theory, with 1 good leg, you can do). Either method you described involves shifting the weight to somewhere else, even if temporarily. This sounds like may not be possible (or very difficult to execute) with a collapsing belay stance. An extra belay device, prussic, and cutting the rope around the knot) probably could have worked in a slightly less dire situation, but that was what it was.
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skiclimb
May 3, 2008, 4:54 AM
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It was what it was..those two knew each others abilities and limitations and came to a very clear good resolution with eaCH OTHER..
That of all things speaks for itself as to right and wrong for them in their specific situation.
That said..I absolutely know without dobt what i would do in the same situation..
I could easily rig a way to bypass the knot and would not have waited 1 minute to do so. For me it is second nature and simplistic...However part of the reason it is simplistic for me is because I read that book and spent time thinking about it and practicing knot bypass techniques...so I may know somethign they didnt..
For me the action taken would have been impossible..but i am not them in their situation at that time.
I cannot and do not blame for the action taken.
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pentapitch
May 4, 2008, 4:00 AM
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i think the critical factor was that Yates had no anchor. perhaps, he could have rigged a prusik cord prior to the whole "lowering off" ordeal, which would have helped to pass the knot.
but, with dodgy seat anchor in spindrift, and the full weight of Simpson on a thin, wet rope, his options were way limited.
i had the unfortunate experience of having to jumar back up a dry rope on a nice day, over a roof, and it takes a pretty fair amount of strength to make progress. having a broken leg, cold, tired etc... left Simpson with pretty much no options.
also, having had a few lost episodes myself, it is very difficult to descend a route/moutain and then "cut back over" and find your original line of descent. so looking for Simpson was one thing, finding him would have been a near miracle.
imo.
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tradrenn
May 4, 2008, 5:03 AM
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Wasn't there a part where Simon explains that he couldn't prusic up the rope cause he couldn't feel his fingers and he dropped prusic cord ?
I don't think you can do much if your fingers are frozen.
and to be honest, I didn't read the book.
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kachoong
May 4, 2008, 3:33 PM
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tradrenn wrote: Wasn't there a part where Simon explains that he couldn't prusic up the rope cause he couldn't feel his fingers and he dropped prusic cord ? I don't think you can do much if your fingers are frozen. and to be honest, I didn't read the book.
From memory, I think Joe dropped a/both mitt(s) while trying to tie a prussik.
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8flood8
May 4, 2008, 4:01 PM
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in the movie, you clearly see him drop his prussik
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bwat
May 4, 2008, 4:41 PM
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For the sake of clarity from the last couple posts...
Joe Simpson – had the broken leg and was the one lowered off the edge of the cliff. He tried to tie prussik's to ascend the rope to the ledge but was unable to due to his fingers – which caused him to drop the rope before he could finish.
Simon Yates – was the one who cut the rope. He did not attempt a prussik.
(This post was edited by bwat on May 4, 2008, 4:42 PM)
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tradrenn
May 4, 2008, 6:51 PM
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Thank you. Its been a while.
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billl7
May 4, 2008, 7:36 PM
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Yeah, if only life really did run like a dictionary - it all would have been straightforward. In reality, attaching and using a prussic when hanging from a rope is a much easier game than passing a knot in a deteriorating seat belay.
I would fault Joe in the first place for not calling for a belay, hence breaking his leg and so endangering them both. Joe knew then that the best option might be for Simon to leave him to die.
Simon should have checked on Joe the next morning ... or at least planned to rest at camp for a day and return even if just to find a stone cold partner.
But god damn it, they were pushing the limits.
Bill L
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