Still, I think a lot of people will start thinking, and when they get home, test it in their own privacy, maybe google a bit, and then actually learn!

So I would say that even though the first reaction often is defensive and arguing, the end result will still often be good.

Yeah, people are stupid; unfortunately we're all people.

I tend to follow Curt's approach of only getting involved when it's a genuine safety hazard OR when people seem to be actually interested in learning.

It's all in the approach.

I think the keys are:
Don't start off confrontational - maybe a little small talk first.
Don't just say they're doing it wrong, explain why and suggest a better solution.

If you do that, I think most people will listen.

I actually think the reason many get defensive and start arguing is that they simply do not understand what the problem is. If brake strand on top looks exactly like brake strand on bottom, or if a backclipped draw looks just like a correctly clipped draw, it's hard to understand what exactly the problem is. Now, a perfect human would say "I'm sorry, I don't understand how your setup is different from what I have now, could you please give me 5-10 minutes to try for myself so I realise how they differ and why your solution is better". In reality, you don't want to lose face (as you are supposed to know this stuff, having taken a course and everything), so you start arguing.

Still, I think a lot of people will start thinking, and when they get home, test it in their own privacy, maybe google a bit, and then actually learn!

So I would say that even though the first reaction often is defensive and arguing, the end result will still often be good.

The person who taught me to climb was a good teacher. And the method he taught me to belay was fine. It can be perfectly safe. But there was a better way, and I was (eventually) grateful to the guy in Yosemite for showing it to me!
GO

I think it's pretty natural for all of us to get defensive, and there are so many suggestions flying around in an average gym that you don't necessarily want to take every one of them seriously. The right, friendly, "small-talk" approach helps.


Good for you -- but now -- not to derail this discussion, I'm curious? Is there a prior post explaining the less-good and the more-good method?

I'm going to venture a guess that the less good method is the pinch and slide method that is still being held over from the munter belay days and the more good method is the PBUS method.

I one starred you as a welcome to the boards good will gesture, seemed like the appropriate thing to do.

First, I have to say that this is my first new thread in quite some time. Maybe, I'm optimistic about the new owner. Maybe, I am encouraged by the discussion in his thread. Or maybe, I'm just really really bored.

Anywho, since discussion is hard to come by these days, I thought I would give some people advice on what not to say in any disagreement or climbing discussion.

Last night, while climbing at the local gym, I overheard an argument. I turned around out of pure curiosity. One climber had set up his belay and the other two were questioning it, saying it was set up wrong. I looked and he had it upside down so that the brake strand was on the top. Now, in reality, it's not really a safety concern because he will just end up twisting it into the correct position and will still be able to catch a falling climber. BUT....I just leaned over and politely said that they were right and explained why. I was not condescending at all.

He then proceeded to turn back towards his partners and rant about how he had been climbing for 20 years and every climbing course that he's taken has taught this method. It was immediately apparent that he would not listen so I just turned away and proceeded to climb.

So, here is how NOT to win a climbing disagreement.

1. "I've been climbing for X amount of years!" It makes you sound stubborn, defensive, and without a willingness to learn. Whether X=6 months or X=20 years, it doesn't matter. It sounds the same.

2. "This is what my climbing instructor taught me." Just like there are poor plumbers, electricians, and doctors, there are poor climbing instructors.

3. "I've been doing it this way for X amount of years, and I'm not dead yet." News flash: you're not dead until you're dead. I can smoke for many years or drive like a maniac for many years. That doesn't make either of them right.

Climbing is like politics sometimes. You are so busy believing in your own dogma, that you cannot even begin to think critically for yourself. All I really had to do with this guy was to consult either a belay device or a harness instruction manual. But, since he was not in any danger (at least not last night) and I didn't feel he would listen anyways, I backed away. It wasn't really worth it.

Josh

Love you too moose_droppings. Although I am curious where in South Dakota you climb... I spent 6 summers in North Dakota, and the ranch where I worked had the highest hill for miles and miles around, which was nothing more than a 200 foot tall pile of dirt. You could onsight it in 2 mins if you hustled.

North Dakota in the winter has snow drifts higher then that hill your talking about.
BTW, didn't we lose ND on a bet to Canada? Maybe we won the bet and lost it, can't remember for sure.

Love you too moose_droppings. Although I am curious where in South Dakota you climb... I spent 6 summers in North Dakota, and the ranch where I worked had the highest hill for miles and miles around, which was nothing more than a 200 foot tall pile of dirt. You could onsight it in 2 mins if you hustled.

South Dakota has some of the most amazing climbing that no one ever visits. The limesone cliffs there are comparable to Ten Sleep, just not as populous. North Dakota has a few chossy sandstone routes out west by Medora, but aside from that, ND has ZERO climbing.