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dingus
Nov 15, 2005, 12:56 AM
Post #26 of 36
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In reply to: I don't think it's right to say that you don't go with guides because it ruins the experience and then say that you're not knocking people who do go with guides. I say this because I don't think you're seeing all the shades of grey in guiding. Perhaps your arguement has some justification in summit oriented guiding, but it definately does not have any merrit when it comes to educational guiding.
In terms of the 'learning' client, hmmm, you have a point... to a certain extent.
I don't need to see or represent all the shades of guiding though. Tisn't my problem.
As far as merit goes, my argument has all the merit I grant it. Remember, its my argument for why I won't avail myself of a guide. The merit stops at the edge of my cranium. I don't need to justify my decisions, for climbing or guiding, to you or anyone else.
That said, I appreciate your well considered objections. You made good points.
In 30 years though, I never hired a guide to teach me anything about climbing. Not even in a group seminar.
Cheerio
DMT
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unclebob
Nov 15, 2005, 1:04 AM
Post #27 of 36
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In reply to: A guide is a replacement of many of the things I hold dear in climbing. Responsibility. Judgement. Route finging. Leadership. Planning.
Judgement comes from knowledge and experience.
Getting a little of both without risking your life may seem foolish to you, fortunately you are in the minority.
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dingus
Nov 15, 2005, 1:16 AM
Post #28 of 36
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In reply to: In reply to: A guide is a replacement of many of the things I hold dear in climbing. Responsibility. Judgement. Route finging. Leadership. Planning. Judgement comes from knowledge and experience. Getting a little of both without risking your life may seem foolish to you, fortunately you are in the minority.
How'd you get yours?
DMT
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slobmonster
Nov 15, 2005, 1:52 AM
Post #29 of 36
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Registered: Jul 28, 2003
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In reply to: There are two types of guiding. The first is summit oriented and the second is education oriented.
I know where you're coming from. It can be quite easy to bifurcate one's skills and abilities as a guide and pick one of these approaches. I've done it myself: some days, simply getting moving, getting near/to the summit, and staying out of harms way is all that can be mustered. And it's these days that I am simply *exhausted* afterward. (I should note that such days are usually in challenging, variable, winter, alpine weather... not a summer's day in the Sierra)
When everything jives, however, you can have the rare opportunity to dovetail an "actual route" with some real and candid talk about what's going on. Of course the irony is that at the end of the day, those certain clients who happen to be capable of listening and absorbing get a slap on the shoulder, a beer from my cooler, and an instruction to get out there on their own. Sometime they've just been waiting for someone to tell them that they're "ready."
Commercial and military pilots have been the best students imagineable; they understand that they cannot mitigate all risk, but can still do things "right."
FWIW Dingus, I used to work with fellows who had hired guides in order to become guides. This never made much sense to me.
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12volt_man
Nov 17, 2005, 4:48 AM
Post #30 of 36
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Registered: Feb 20, 2005
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All
Thanks for the responses. Guess I should have clarified my original question. Beyond climbing skills sets, rescue, first aid, customer service etc, I am interested in what business elements such as permits, insurance coverages/limits, planning, budgeting are essential to operate on public lands. Any real world experience is appreciated.
Mahalo
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mtnfr34k
Nov 18, 2005, 7:10 AM
Post #31 of 36
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Registered: Jul 16, 2005
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It all depends on where you're operating, mate. You need an individual permit from each administrative unit, i.e. each Park, each Forest, each BLM unit. Each unit also has their own insurance requirements. As for your budgetting and accounting, that depends on you as a business owner. Be aware that the land managers can audit your record to ensure honesty in your permit use.
I got interested enough in the business aspect of guiding that I decided to go to university finally (I jokingly refer to it as the 15-year college plan) and get a degree in small business management with an emphasis on "adventure tourism." I'll be graduating in December 2006.
Along the way, I'm working towards AMGA certification. I really do believe its the coming trend. Joshua Tree, Smith Rock, and the Gunks require it to one degree or another. And Mt. Rainier NP said that AMGA accreditation - which is tied to certification - will be a serious consideration when they decide who the three guide services are going to be awarded the new permits.
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guangzhou
Nov 18, 2005, 8:15 AM
Post #32 of 36
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I am not sure that I agree that accreditation will be a big issue on the permit decision. In order for certification to become more regular and important in the role of those decision, the goverment will have to organize ans set up their own credential program for guiding.
AMGA is a non-profit organization with a good goal and sound pratices that guide evrywhere could learn from, but they are not an end all.
Earlier, someone aske dabout incomputent guide that are certified by AMGA. They are out there, but most guide AMGA or not choose not to air our dirty laundry.
AMGA as good standarts, and they have some good marketing, but they still have a long way to go beofre they become a great certification body.
Hooking up with its Canadian and European counter part is a good start.
You need to approach each and every land manager for the areas you want to guide and get their guidelines for concessions. Climbing guideline generally require liability insurance of $1million. Most have a few other hoops to jump through.
Fees are geeral accessed on a per guide day basis.
Good luck
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toml
Nov 29, 2005, 4:20 PM
Post #33 of 36
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Registered: Feb 6, 2004
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Each area the guide service operates will have its own rules. Here's a taste from Joshua Tree - fairly typical these days in terms of requiring insurance and accreditation; they also require a business operating plan, which is less universal. You will have to jump through these hoops at each area. Many areas also issue limited numbers of permits, so even if you jump through all the hoops you're hosed as you can be fairly sure someone else has the permits already.
To get the insurance, usually you will need to have been working as a guide for several years. Nobody likes to insure a start-up guide with no experience.
Outside of the USA, the requirements tend to be simpler. For example in France or Switzerland, you need to be an IFMGA certified guide, and then you can go pretty much anywhere. But hey, the French government runs a mountain climbing guide school, and is a highly centralized government, so that's how they work (gov't certifies you, and then the country is yours).
PROCEDURES FOR OBTAINING AN INCIDENTAL BUSINESS PERMIT AT JOSHUA TREE NATIONAL PARK
1. Cost requirements for obtaining an Incidental Business Permit (IBP) Complete and return the Application/Worksheet with $465.00 for the following:
a. Application Cost: $120.00
(Non-refundable upon receipt of application)
b. Administrative Cost: $195.00
(Non-refundable upon processing of application)
c. Annual Incidental Monitoring/Management Cost: $150.00
TOTAL COST: $465.00
2. The following additional requirements are detailed in item # 10 of the application:
a. Certificate of Insurance: Insurance certificates must specify that the insurance company shall have no right of subrogation against the United States of America. The additional insured shall be named as follows:
U.S. Government
Joshua Tree National Park
74485 National Park Drive
Twentynine Palms, CA 92277
b. Operating Plan
c. Promotional Literature
d. Instructor Certifications
e. Rock Climbing Accreditation or Certification
All the above are essential elements for processing an Incidental Business Permit. The Rock Climbing requirement, “e.”, is only applicable for groups doing technical rock climbing.
3. Applicants obtaining an IBP will be responsible for knowing and abiding by those items listed in the Policy for Incidental Business Permittees and the General Guidelines: 5.2 Special Park Use Guideline of July 15, 2004.
4. The Joshua Tree National Park Monthly Use Report will be required of all IBP holders by the seventh day of the month following activity in the park.
5. Questions pertaining to the IBP permitting process may be directed to the Permits Coordinator at (760) 367-5545.
United States Department of Interior
National Park Service
Joshua Tree National Park
74485 National Park Drive
Twentynine Palms, CA 92277-3597
PROCEDURES FOR OBTAINING AN INCIDENTAL BUSINESS PERMIT AT JOSHUA TREE NATIONAL PARK
(Type or print in black ink the information requested.)
1. APPLICANT
Name:
Street/P.O. Box:
City/State/Zip:
Phone:
2. ORGANIZATION
Name:
Street/P.O. Box:
City/State/Zip:
Phone:
3. Email: Fax:
4. Type of business conducted:
5. Describe activity in detail:
6. Describe support equipment associated with the activity: (generators, caterers, mechanized equipment, etc.)
7. List dates, times and specific locations of event(s):
a.
b.
c.
d.
e.
8. Estimated number of people per visit:
Estimated number of annual visits:
9. Estimated annual gross receipts to be generated in the park: $
10. The following materials must be received with this application before processing can be completed:
a. Certificate of Insurance: Minimum $1,000,000 per occurrence; Additional Insured: U.S. Government;
Certificate Holder: Joshua Tree National Park
b. Operating Plan: Details of activities, Emergency Preparedness Plan, Contact Information, etc.
c. Promotional Literature: Pamphlets, papers or brochures distributed to the public.
d. Instructor Certificates: Copies (front & back) – First Aid and CPR (minimum)
e. Rock Climbing: Proof of either AMGA or AEE Accreditation/Certification, or Letter of Intent
f. Checks payable to National Park Service in the following amounts:
1) Application/Administrative Costs: $315.00
2) Annual Incidental Monitoring Costs: $150.00
NOTICE: If a previous IBP was obtained by your company, that information becomes a part of the Joshua Tree National Park historic file system. All materials must be submitted again for obtaining a new permit.
11. Name of person on location responsible for group’s adherence to all terms and conditions of permit.
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12volt_man
Nov 30, 2005, 3:23 AM
Post #34 of 36
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Registered: Feb 20, 2005
Posts: 406
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Thanks for the detail. This is exactly the pragmatic information I need to develop a working plan. 8^)
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nedsurf
Nov 30, 2005, 5:35 AM
Post #35 of 36
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Registered: Nov 9, 2004
Posts: 387
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I think it is all about the insurance to start a guide service. As of now there is no unified certification. I think one of the reasons for this is the cost of an AMGA cert. compared to the average amount of money one makes guiding. Economically speaking, for many guides, it is not worth it. I do agree with creating some standardization for guide expertise.
I have got to agree with Dingus on what is fun in climbing. I could not find a partner for a large, popular cascade mtn. in Washington. I hired the very well known guide service there to go with. It was a lot of money. :shock: I was treated like a liability at all times. I wasn't even allowed to tie my own butterfly knot on the rope. Forget about making it a team effort for routefinding and such. I did not have fun. I do not even count that ascent (I did it again, unguided on the same route) as a climbing accomplishment. I'm sticking to non-guided climbs from now on for the very reasons that Dingus layed out. Otherwise my climbing would not be fun for me.
I can see where guiding service has its place. I saw pair of siblings having a good time climbing guided at Devils Tower. :D
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majid_sabet
Nov 30, 2005, 6:54 AM
Post #36 of 36
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Registered: Dec 13, 2002
Posts: 8390
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I am sure in most federal parks and national forest, BLM , you got to go thru tons of paper work and they do not allow too many guides to do business on a same park etc.
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