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wonderwoman
Oct 10, 2008, 8:23 PM
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hafilax wrote: Thread: belaying second off of the anchor biner96: I've seen people belay the leader off the anchor Thread: belaying leader off the anchor biner96: I often belay the second off the anchor Seemed ironic to me. YMMV. 
Got it now. Well, in a way she is the inspiration for this discussion. A lot of us had never heard of someone belaying a leader off the anchor until she brought it up in her post.
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tharlow
Oct 10, 2008, 8:43 PM
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Took a factor 1 fall at devils tower. My belayer was using a power point of off the bolted anchor and 2 cams for upward directional. When I fell, cams popped and pulled atc upward, grazed his face, and he was unable to arrest my fall. We were a party of 4, so the other 2 climbers grabbed the rope and managed to stop the fall maybe 10 feet from the ledge. That is why I belay the leader from harness only. Side note, if I have a bomer anchor, even on gear, I feel comfortable belaying most 2nd's from the anchor. If the anchor is less than optimal, the belay goes to the harness.
(This post was edited by tharlow on Oct 10, 2008, 8:45 PM)
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tomcat
Oct 10, 2008, 8:55 PM
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Inevitably,what follows next is some jackass telling you that you don't know how to place gear/or make an anchor.Reality is that all anchors are truck,until they are not.
Once you have been sitting on a ledge,and had the whole thing fall off,your perspective changes some...
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tharlow
Oct 10, 2008, 9:04 PM
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Well, we had been climbing maybe a year, pretty green, and made a few mistakes like this that that fortunately we were able to learn from. I guess the other part of the scenario is that I was 20 feet from my last placement when I fell. Being a little heavy, and running it out put a lot of force on the anchor and probably contributed. Theory will take you so far, but nothing like the real thing.
(This post was edited by tharlow on Oct 10, 2008, 9:04 PM)
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extreme_actuary
Oct 10, 2008, 10:17 PM
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If belaying off the anchor with an ATC, I don't see how you can keep the orientation of the ATC in the proper direction if it is unweighted. Wouldn't it be pointed downward until a fall, and then it will point upward? I don't see how you could feed rope that way.
The only way I can imagine is if the ATC is clipped directly to one bolt, no slings or chain involved. This way, the ATC doesn't have much freedom to travel. In Europe, everyone says the bolts are vertically oriented (I have never climbed there, so correct me if I am wrong), so you could clip the ATC to the top bolt and tie off the bottom bolt which is in-line with the first to sort-of equalize them. You couldn't do this if the bolts were horizontal.
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shorty
Oct 10, 2008, 11:16 PM
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extreme_actuary wrote: If belaying off the anchor with an ATC, I don't see how you can keep the orientation of the ATC in the proper direction if it is unweighted. Wouldn't it be pointed downward until a fall, and then it will point upward? I don't see how you could feed rope that way.
I agree completely with the orientation issues of an ATC (or similar device) when it is attached to an anchor. Taking this one step further, I feel that I can pay out and take in rope both faster and more effectively when the ATC is attached to my harness. Maybe I could learn the new way, but my arms seem to work best going towards and away from my naval, rather than up and down next to a rock wall.
extreme_actuary wrote: The only way I can imagine is if the ATC is clipped directly to one bolt, no slings or chain involved. This way, the ATC doesn't have much freedom to travel. In Europe, everyone says the bolts are vertically oriented (I have never climbed there, so correct me if I am wrong), so you could clip the ATC to the top bolt and tie off the bottom bolt which is in-line with the first to sort-of equalize them. You couldn't do this if the bolts were horizontal.
The newer European style is to have vertical bolts at the belay, but I can assure you that not all belays are that way. Well, unless maybe hordes of climbers have spent gazillions of Euros replacing every anchor on the continent.
More than a few of the belays on that side of the pond have old school angle pitons with rings, fixed nuts, beat to crap pins, and bolts made of unusual-looking alloys that cavemen must have produced. Some belays even require (hold on now) trad gear. The only thing I didn't see was 1/4" button heads with spinning Leaper-Z hangers -- that seems to be an American tradition.
Bottom line -- even if it is perfectly safe and reasonable to attach the belay device directly to the anchor, when I'm leading I want my second to have the belay device on his/her harness. Well, unless I'm rope soloing, and then the device is on my harness.
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shorty
Oct 11, 2008, 12:00 AM
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troutboy wrote: blueeyedclimber wrote: At the risk of creating thread drift, why wouldn't you do it with gear, but it's fine with bolts or a tree? Mostly because I find it easier to create a truly SRENE anchor off 2 bolts or a solid tree (does such a thing exist - thinking of that huge tree that once stood atop P2 of Three Pines ?). Also, 2 well places bolts are most likely more solid than even a well constructed gear anchor. Finally, I have less doubt about the integrity of 2 well placed bolts or a solid tree.
As you stated, trees aren't around forever. Where I'm putting up routes, fire and beetle kill have made BFTs (that would be "Big Friendly Trees") a thing of the past. But I like massive healthy trees as an anchor, and use them when available.
Slinging BFRs (aka "Rock") for belay anchors can also be an issue. Think Yosemite. And I've trundled some desk- and car-sized blocks with shocking ease. Caveat emptor.
If you know who placed the bolts and are comfy with the rock quality, bolts can be good to go. I'm confident in my own "bigger is better" bolting philosophy, but I still have bad visions of pushing a 1/4" button head back into the rock with my thumb from a nearby crag. While on a hanging belay.
In good rock with good cracks, I'm perfectly happy with setting up hanging belays with my gear. Shoot, I'll even bring a second up, belaying them directly from the anchor.
And every once in a blue moon I've shouted down to my second that this is a really, really good time to climb without falling. Those aren't fun times, but it's important to have the understanding that such situations can arise.
I'm with you that solid trees and good bolts help make effective and efficient anchors. The challenge comes with our ability to judge when the trees and bolts are sound.
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clc
Oct 11, 2008, 12:32 AM
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My guiding friend was just a a seminar for the ACMG and they discussed the belay method. Not many anchors at setup the vertical way, so I doubt its used much here.
heres some of his email to me
"On gear belays the technique is 2-3 down and 2 up for a bomber anchor that can be belayed off a fixed point. There is also a super important issue of how much the belay device travels on impact. It cannot move more that 20cms. What this means is that imagine you are using a bolt for your fixed point. You would want to take a short sling (short as a belay loop on a harness) and clip this into the bolt then the device goes on the other end of this. No more than 10cms extension or impact forces start to increase again to the anchor. The small loop is the soft point on the anchor as opposed to clipping a biner straight to the bolt as it could twist and deform under a load."
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healyje
Oct 11, 2008, 3:59 AM
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There is no circumstance where belaying a leader off the anchor would be acceptable. Don't even consider it - there is no "even if it..." - there is no good rationale for it, period.
I have held leader falls off the belay with no piece in, once with a hip belay (single non-locking carabiner) and once with an ATC. Both sucked and were fairly brutal, but manageable. It is a situation to be avoided at all cost, but I'd still prefer that anytime compared to the potential consequences of belaying off my anchor.
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clc
Oct 11, 2008, 4:26 AM
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Healyie
what are the "potential consequences of belaying off my anchor" ? anyway. I think we should give more credit to international certified rock guides. they should know a little about climbing don't you think? why are you more of an expert?
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healyje
Oct 11, 2008, 6:22 AM
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clc wrote: Healyie what are the "potential consequences of belaying off my anchor" ? anyway. I think we should give more credit to international certified rock guides. they should know a little about climbing don't you think? why are you more of an expert?
Use your imagination.
Belaying seconds off the anchor is reasonably acceptable, but the leader? I don't give a flying f#ck what piece of paper a given cult waves - it's simply too savagely unwise of an idea to qualify as a 'practice' one might then adequately do justice in disparaging.
(This post was edited by healyje on Oct 11, 2008, 6:23 AM)
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tradrenn
Oct 11, 2008, 7:12 AM
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clc wrote: Healyie what are the "potential consequences of belaying off my anchor" ? anyway. I think we should give more credit to international certified rock guides. they should know a little about climbing don't you think? why are you more of an expert?
Well, lets see.
For the sake of argument lets say you are on a multipich route, anchored to two bolts anchor station. you are anchored using mini equallete and clipped to the equallete with your rope using Clove Hitch and backed up with Figure 8 on a bite.
Now your belaying options:
#1. Off the anchor.
You clip your ATC to one of the bolts, your leader casts off and 8 feet above he places a nut, than he keeps climbing for couple feet and falls, nut rips, bolt breaks and you are holding the rope ( and his/her life ) with your bare hands.
Do you think you can handle that ?
#2. Off your harness.
You clip your ATC to your belay loop, your leader casts off and 8 feet above he places a nut, than he keeps climbing for couple feet and falls, nut rips, one of the bolts breaks and you are catching FF of 2 with an assist of your ATC instead of your bare hands.
I think you or any of us is better of with option #2.
HTH
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superbumbly
Oct 11, 2008, 8:45 AM
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In reply to: #2. Off your harness. You clip your ATC to your belay loop, your leader casts off and 8 feet above he places a nut, than he keeps climbing for couple feet and falls, nut rips, one of the bolts breaks and you are catching FF of 2 with an assist of your ATC instead of your bare hands. I think you or any of us is better of with option #2. THAT IS KORRECT
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mheyman
Oct 11, 2008, 2:04 PM
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tradrenn wrote: clc wrote: Healyie what are the "potential consequences of belaying off my anchor" ? anyway... Well, lets see. You clip your ATC to one of the bolts, your leader casts off and 8 feet above he places a nut, than he keeps climbing for couple feet and falls, nut rips, bolt breaks and you are holding the rope ( and his/her life ) with your bare hands....HTH
Bingo
Clipping to the power point is going to have direction and movement issues.
Anything left to argue about?
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xtrmecat
Oct 11, 2008, 3:22 PM
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I have climbed with and hired AMGA guides several times and I have never seen them leave a belay and not redirect off the anchor. I have personally a few times at stuff that was well below our abilities and bomber first gear. The first piece off the belay is critical but so is the redirect. Who the hell are you guys and why are you still alive?
Bob
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xtrmecat
Oct 11, 2008, 3:26 PM
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Also if you cannot arrest a fall with an ATC in any situation or orientation, then you are in the wrong game, and using equipment that is too complicated for you . Please refrain from giving advice and lessons, as you obviously are not qualified to do so.
Bob
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jt512
Oct 11, 2008, 3:46 PM
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xtrmecat wrote: I have climbed with and hired AMGA guides several times and I have never seen them leave a belay and not redirect off the anchor. I have personally a few times at stuff that was well below our abilities and bomber first gear. The first piece off the belay is critical but so is the redirect. Who the hell are you guys and why are you still alive? Bob
So your argument is that the several times you climbed with an AMGA guide, the guide redirected the lead rope through the belay anchor; therefore, doing so is critical. Out of curiosity, do you have any other reasons for believing it is critical?
Jay
(This post was edited by jt512 on Oct 11, 2008, 3:50 PM)
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edbannister
Oct 11, 2008, 3:48 PM
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Climbing rope is engineered for, and tested for that matter, off fixed anchors.
If you are worried about your pro pulling because the belay was not "soft" you have not placed your pro properly.
I think more people get hurt hitting ledges, than any consequence of belaying off an anchor.
but, belaying off an anchor does increase loads in the system, so a 20 footer onto a #0 stopper would decelerate the faller, but break the stopper wire, probably in either off the anchor, or a good body belay.
Bad directional can be set up with any belay method.
and I would bet healy knows more than at least most of those guides with a piece of paper, even though we might disagree on some points. |
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mheyman
Oct 11, 2008, 5:38 PM
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xtrmecat wrote: Also if you cannot arrest a fall with an ATC in any situation or orientation, then you are in the wrong game, and using equipment that is too complicated for you . Please refrain from giving advice and lessons, as you obviously are not qualified to do so. Bob
This is easily disproved. You can't arrest a high fall factor fall if the device is not in a locking position with respect to the rope. Movement and direction issues when clipped to most equalized power points make guaranteeing that you can maintain or achieve a locking position almost impossible.
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xtrmecat
Oct 11, 2008, 5:40 PM
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I find it amusing that you folks would have better practices than a professional. The highest standard of a pro is an AMGA certification. Not posting about what you have gotten away with for a few years on the internet. I am also very seasoned, but would never profess that my way is better than the oldest tried and true methods.
Bob
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jt512
Oct 11, 2008, 5:45 PM
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xtrmecat wrote: I find it amusing that you folks would have better practices than a professional. The highest standard of a pro is an AMGA certification. Not posting about what you have gotten away with for a few years on the internet. I am also very seasoned, but would never profess that my way is better than the oldest tried and true methods.
I find it amusing that a climber who relies unquestioningly on the practices of AMGA guides thinks of himself as "seasoned."
Jay
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vegastradguy
Oct 11, 2008, 5:59 PM
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xtrmecat wrote: I find it amusing that you folks would have better practices than a professional. The highest standard of a pro is an AMGA certification.
having been through amga training, i can speak to the standards that they teach- and they are certainly not the end all-be all. more than once, i questioned the safety of a technique from my teachers and never got an answer that satisfied me. are they good climbers- yes. the best? not necessarily. do they know the right thing to do in every situation? absolutely not. do they have a good skill set taught to them that keeps their clients alive? for the most part, yes, but like everything else, there are definitely exceptions to that rule.
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xtrmecat
Oct 11, 2008, 7:41 PM
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Ok I'll bite. I do not rely on anyones practices unquestionably. You know neither me or my practices. You are just spoiling for a fight would be my guess. I have enough experience and mileage in all climbing disciplines to consider myself (seasoned) a very experienced climber. If you feel that I've judged you or your practices in a way that would make you want to argue, then there is nothing I can do to change that. Please make no more assumptions as to me or my abilities, and for god's sake stop giving advice to other climbers, however good you may feel it is. If you want to act in a way that affects you and others that is one thing, but if your words could affect others, maybe even get the killed following your advice, with no personal liability to you, then shut the hell up.
I am tired of situations arising at the "crag" where weather or unforeseen instances come up, and people are in way beyond their abilities. The point is your opinion is just that. Giving bad advice to someone who's skills are just enough to get in over their head, and be comfortable with it could and sometimes does lead to death, plain and simple. If you are so sure of your advice then please start reading Accidents in North American Mountaineering every year and see what happens to people who "know what they are doing".
Another reason for my post comes from some of my professional training regarding seminars in "safety". Most people getting hurt in work places today are either ignorant of what they did to get themselves in a position to get hurt, or just have been "doing it that way" for years and just getting lucky. Problem is statistically, it always catches up. It was never intended to ruffle your feathers, just stop long enough to look at the real answer, instead of "What I do is". These are real people and real lives your guiding here.
Bob
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billl7
Oct 11, 2008, 8:19 PM
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xtrmecat wrote: Another reason for my post comes from some of my professional training regarding seminars in "safety". Most people getting hurt in work places today are either ignorant of what they did to get themselves in a position to get hurt, or just have been "doing it that way" for years and just getting lucky. Problem is statistically, it always catches up. It was never intended to ruffle your feathers, just stop long enough to look at the real answer, instead of "What I do is". These are real people and real lives your guiding here.
And you don't have to look very far back in RC.com history to see that Jay is a significant source of irritation for me. In other words, my above opinion is not that of an enamored underling of his.
Bill L
Edit: fixed quote
(This post was edited by billl7 on Oct 11, 2008, 8:22 PM)
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jt512
Oct 11, 2008, 9:10 PM
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xtrmecat wrote: I do not rely on anyones practices unquestionably. You know neither me or my practices.
I can only judge you by what you post. And what you posted was that it was "critical" to redirect the belay through the anchor, and the only reason you gave for believing it was critical was that it is what you've observed "several" AMGA guides doing. When asked specifically whether you had any other basis for your judgment you did not provide any. The only conclusion that can be drawn from this is that you have formed this belief solely on the basis of your observation of a few AMGA guides.
In reply to: I have enough experience and mileage in all climbing disciplines to consider myself (seasoned) a very experienced climber.
Overestimation of one's own competence is a well-documented psychological flaw. I have never met a climber whom I would consider "seasoned" who would call a practice "critical" just because they've observed a few guides do it.
In reply to: ...for god's sake stop giving advice to other climbers, however good you may feel it is. If you want to act in a way that affects you and others that is one thing, but if your words could affect others, maybe even get the killed following your advice, with no personal liability to you, then shut the hell up.
Exactly what advice have I given to other climbers that you feel might get them killed? I'm really curious. Can you post some examples? I doubt it.
In reply to: I am tired of situations arising at the "crag" where weather or unforeseen instances come up, and people are in way beyond their abilities. The point is your opinion is just that. Giving bad advice to someone who's skills are just enough to get in over their head, and be comfortable with it could and sometimes does lead to death, plain and simple. If you are so sure of your advice then please start reading Accidents in North American Mountaineering every year and see what happens to people who "know what they are doing". Another reason for my post comes from some of my professional training regarding seminars in "safety". Most people getting hurt in work places today are either ignorant of what they did to get themselves in a position to get hurt, or just have been "doing it that way" for years and just getting lucky. Problem is statistically, it always catches up. It was never intended to ruffle your feathers, just stop long enough to look at the real answer, instead of "What I do is". These are real people and real lives your guiding here. Bob
I can honestly say that I have no idea what that incoherent rant is supposed to refer to.
Jay
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