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lou
Nov 5, 2007, 1:04 AM
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Came within six feet of rapping off the end of a rope approx. 60 feet up a route at Tahquitz. Thought I would share my blunder. I met a gal at Paradise Forks who was from L.A. and so as things were to come; I met her at Tahquitz for our first climbing date. I brought the gear and she the rope and we started a wonderful day at that lovely hunk of granite. We did some mutipitch thing and did the walk off around the south face and ended up back at lunch rock. Was late in the afternoon and we had time for one more pitch; so I lead the first pitch of Human fright. As I called off belay, the gal I was with decided not to follow. So I clipped the anchors untied and pulled the rope end which was tied to me thru the anchors till I got to the "middle black mark". Happily p thinking of cold beer and hmmmm...other things... I started to rap and pull my gear. I pushed off and stopped at my first piece...removed it...and pushed off to the next...as I was taking that piece out; I decided to look off left and under the overhang to see my next piece; only to see no rope passing thru any of my other lower pieces!!! Then to see the end of the rope ( which should have been thru the pieces) hanging six feet below me. The only reason I did not rapp off the end, was cause I had happen to look for my next piece instead of pushin off.. I can not described the sick feeling I got in my stomach; nausea and a stinking fear. I set two bomber pieces; clipped into them and reset the rap. The black mark I thought was the middle of the rope was the 10 meter mark on the end. Her rope had both a middle mark and two end marks. I had never seen a rope of such...and had blindly rapped off the anchor. From the anchor of Human fright I could not see the base of the route. As I looked at my partner; she was snapping pictures, of me!? Unaware. Might have been a five star photo if she had caught me rapping off the end!! Still have a bad feeling in my gut. Be safe my brothers...and learn from my blunder. 
(This post was edited by lou on Nov 7, 2007, 6:41 PM)
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ja1484
Nov 5, 2007, 1:21 AM
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Y'know, there's a real freakin' easy solution to this potential hazard:
8 on a bight in the end of each rap rope -> locking carabiner -> belay loop.
Happy climbing.
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flint
Nov 5, 2007, 1:29 AM
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lou wrote: Came within six feet of rapping off the end of a rope approx. 60 feet up a route at Tahquitz. Thought I would share my blunder. I met a gal at Paradise Forks who was from L.A. and so as things were to come; I met her at Tahquitz for our first climbing date. I brought the gear and she the rope and we started a wonderful day at that lovely hunk of granite. We did some mutipitch thing and did the walk off around the south face and ended up back at lunch rock. Was late in the afternoon and we had time for one more pitch; so I lead the first pitch of Human fright. As I called off belay, the gal I was with decided not to follow. So I clipped the anchors untied and pulled the rope end which was tied to me thru the anchors till I got to the "middle black mark". Happily p thinking of cold beer and hmmmm...other things... I started to rap and pull my gear. I pushed off and stopped at my first piece...removed it...and pushed off to the next...as I was taking that piece out; I decided to look off left and under the overhang to see my next piece; only to see no rope passing thru any of my other lower pieces!!! Then to see the end of the rope ( which should have been thru the pieces) hanging six feet below me. The only reason I did not rapp off the end, was cause I had happen to look for my next piece instead of pushin off.. I can not described the sick feeling I got in my stomach; nausea and a stinking fear. I set two bomber pieces; clipped into them and reset the rap. The black mark I thought was the middle of the rope was the 10 meter mark on the end. Her rope had both a middle mark and two end marks. I had never seen a rope of such...and had blindly rapped off the anchor. From the anchor of Human fright I could not see the base of the route. As I looked at my partner; she was snapping pictures!! Unaware. Might have been a five star photo if she had caught me rapping off the end!! Still have a bad feeling in my gut. Be safe my brothers...and learn from my blunder. [:/]
I take it you didn't get any, or was she a nOOb and you played it off Joe Cool style?
j-
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lou
Nov 5, 2007, 1:40 AM
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j- theres make up sex and near death sex..... almost as good....
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vegastradguy
Nov 5, 2007, 2:17 AM
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lou wrote: As I looked at my partner; she was snapping pictures!! Unaware.
some partner you have there. my partners always let me know my ends are down- thats SOP for cragging. date or not, thats not cool.
that said, many ropes today come with 10m (or 6m) marks in addition to the halfway mark, and i'm surprised you've never seen that before.
finally, you didnt necessarily need to stop rappelling. you could have self-fed the rappel rope and continued to rappel easily (basically lowered yourself by holding onto one strand and lowering the other) depending on the terrain and rope drag.
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jakedatc
Nov 5, 2007, 2:37 AM
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another example of why it boggles my mind that people think that rappelling.. especially while cleaning gear/draws is safer than lowering off.
glad you caught your mistake lou, i've also done the unequal ends thing while rappelling but was lucky enough to have knots tied in the end (rare for me) and did what Vegas said and kept going on the other side.
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vegastradguy
Nov 5, 2007, 4:52 AM
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jakedatc wrote: another example of why it boggles my mind that people think that rappelling.. especially while cleaning gear/draws is safer than lowering off.
rappelling is never safer than lowering off. it does, however, lessen the wear and tear on the anchor station. you should always rappel from chains/shuts rather than lowering. that said, if you cannot ensure your safety adequately by rappelling, then you should absolutely lower.
what i consider this an example of is two major failures.
one: the climber not paying attention to what he was doing.
two: the belayer not doing their job and assisting the climber when possible- in this case, communicating to the climber that the ends are not on the deck.
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epic_ed
Nov 5, 2007, 5:29 AM
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I feel for ya, and it makes my palms sweat. It sure is an eye-opener and makes you re-evaluate you standard operating proceedures. I've had two similar incidents -- one very early in my climbing career where I did actually rap off the end and decked 15 feet below and another about 200 ft up El Cap when I let go of the gri gri with less than 4 inches to spare. It still gives me the willies and makes my palms sweat.
All sorts of things can play into accidents. My first was inexperience and an attitude that was a bit too cavalier. The second was fatigue, dehydration, a loss of focus, and sheer stupidity. Many people don't get second chances like you and I. But for the grace of God. Thanks for relating the story and I'm sure it will reinforce for some of us the importance of never taking any safety check for granted.
Ed
(This post was edited by epic_ed on Nov 5, 2007, 5:29 AM)
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tradmanclimbs
Nov 5, 2007, 2:24 PM
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Those 10m marks are just completly idiotic and should be outlawed! There should be one mark on the rope and it should be the middle mark! I know of at least one rope designer that agrees with this. I am usually pretty big on personal responsibility but I would be tempted to sue the living shit out of the manufaturer if I or one of my partn right now and I have never even seen one of the damn things. Unfckin believable that they would think that putting 3 marks on a rope instead of one mark wouldn't cause confusion and eventually get someone Killed
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tradmanclimbs
Nov 5, 2007, 2:44 PM
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load of shit! if you partner cant tell when to holler up that your running out of rope they should go back to playinhg fckin video games. putting 3 middle marks on the rope is so fcking stooopid that i can't believe anyone actually pulled such a stoopid stunt It's like putting 3 safty levers on a rifle but only one of them puts the wepon on safe. The other two (safty) levers are actually triggers that fire the wepon.
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vegastradguy
Nov 5, 2007, 2:44 PM
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desertwanderer81 wrote: tradmanclimbs wrote: Those 10m marks are just completly idiotic and should be outlawed! There should be one mark on the rope and it should be the middle mark! I know of at least one rope designer that agrees with this. I am usually pretty big on personal responsibility but I would be tempted to sue the living shit out of the manufaturer if I or one of my partn right now and I have never even seen one of the damn things. Unfckin believable that they would think that putting 3 marks on a rope instead of one mark wouldn't cause confusion and eventually get someone Killed I don't use a rope with a 10m mark, but I'd imagine it would be really nice for trad climbing since you would know exactly when to yell out the 10m (well mine is usually at 20', but oh well) warning so your partner knows that he's going to want to build and anchor soon. Sometimes it is hard to see exactly how much rope you have left when you have it bundled on your feet.
the 10m (or 6m) marks are nice for that and/or when you're rappelling at night, or during the day and you cant see the ends, you know they're coming up fast.
the marks are usually different in nature- if there's a 10m mark, they are usually a single strip of black, and a middle mark is usually two strips of black with a small space (the middle) between them.
regardless, if you cant tell the difference between 10m and 30m, you should re-evaluate your roped climbing....
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tradmanclimbs
Nov 5, 2007, 2:50 PM
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Bullshit! its nightime, wind is blowing like crazy so you don't want to put knotts in the ends of the rope, your fried form a long stressfull day and you got 3 middlemarkers to choose from. Totaly fuckin stoopid desighn.....
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markc
Nov 5, 2007, 2:55 PM
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vegastradguy wrote: what i consider this an example of is two major failures. one: the climber not paying attention to what he was doing. two: the belayer not doing their job and assisting the climber when possible- in this case, communicating to the climber that the ends are not on the deck.
First off, I'm glad to hear the OP caught his error in time. I'm in agreement with VTG. There are a a number of links in the chain of events that could have resulted in an accident. I make it my standard operating procedure to double-check systems and communicate with my partner when possible.
The OP admitted he was distracted and perhaps rushing. I don't know how he was feeding rope, but there's a huge difference between 10 and 30 meters. If I don't have clear sight and a partner on the ground, I'll always request confirmation that the ends are down. I also make a habit of continually checking the ends myself. If I'm on the ground, I confirm ends are down and prepare to give a fireman's belay if necessary. The climb and my work isn't done until all members of the party are down.
Perhaps it's habit from rappelling first more than half the time, but I'm continually looking out for hang-ups, knots, the next station, etc. Even if I'm not first down, I take things at a reasonable speed and keep an eye on the rope. What are other folks looking at while on rappel?
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saphius
Nov 5, 2007, 2:57 PM
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This is why I always tie knots in the ends of my rope when rapping. I don't care if it's a 30ft climb. I tie my knots.
Have to get in the habit so that you'll always do it, no matter what. That way, when you're tired and thinking about other things ;) you won't end up dead.
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tradmanclimbs
Nov 5, 2007, 3:00 PM
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The Op's situation is a perfect example of why it's such a stoopid design. partners rope that you haven't climbed on before. rap station near an overhang where you can't see much of your rope. The climber sets the rap up on the middlemark of the rope and is good to go except some moron lied and its not the middle mark. oops! just checking to see if you were paying attention I have been climbing 25 years and never encountered one of these stupid ropes so chances are I would have the same near accident or worse. i have also never had to have a mark on the rope to tell me that it was time to make belay.
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tradmanclimbs
Nov 5, 2007, 3:05 PM
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get in the habbit of tying nots in the EVERY time so that when you are tired the knots will be there gaurenfuckinteed to catch in that flake 30ft to your left and cause a reall fckin epic where you get killed trying to get your ropes unstuck
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desertwanderer81
Nov 5, 2007, 3:12 PM
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tradmanclimbs wrote: load of shit! if you partner cant tell when to holler up that your running out of rope they should go back to playinhg fckin video games. putting 3 middle marks on the rope is so fcking stooopid that i can't believe anyone actually pulled such a stoopid stunt It's like putting 3 safty levers on a rifle but only one of them puts the wepon on safe. The other two (safty) levers are actually triggers that fire the wepon.
I think you're a little emotional over marks in the middle of a rope, If you don't like it, don't use it. I also check out a new partner's rope (and other gear) the first time I climb with him/her.
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tradmanclimbs
Nov 5, 2007, 3:23 PM
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Na, its a stupid system that is either going to get someone killed or allready has gotten people killed. Glad you do eveything perfect and won't ever be fooled by something simple like a middle mark that ain't in the middle...
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vegastradguy
Nov 5, 2007, 3:28 PM
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tradmanclimbs wrote: The Op's situation is a perfect example of why it's such a stoopid design.
no, its not. the OP's situation is a perfect example of a pair of big mistakes, neither of which include the rope having 10m marks.
In reply to: I have been climbing 25 years and never encountered one of these stupid ropes so chances are I would have the same near accident or worse.
remind me never to rope up with you....if you cant tell the difference between 30' and 100', you need to re-evaluate your climbing.
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tradmanclimbs
Nov 5, 2007, 3:36 PM
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Murf, ever rap in the dark when you have been on the go for 20hrs? ever rap on a rope your partner set up while you were racking gear or changeing clothes or satbalizeing a broken limb etc? A middle marker is a simple thing and haveing it in the middle of the rope is a simple thing. Putting 3 of them on a rope takes the simple out of it and increases the chance of confusion , accident and death. Supprised at how many people arrogantly claime that if you don't know the diference between 10 and 30m you are a moron that shouldn't be climbing. Well if we were all so good at whipping off 30m then no one would need middle markers and there would be no accidents. People do have rappelling accidents and it is my Opinion as well as the opinion of at least one of the major rope designers that putting 3 marks on a rope vs one mark significantly increases the cahnce for accidental death.
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tradmanclimbs
Nov 5, 2007, 3:38 PM
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Vegas, thats a load of shit and you know it. Your just being a pissy little internet bitch basicly what you get in the accident forum is a bunch of delsional arrogant indivduals whos shit smells like roses convinced that they will never make a mistake and that anyone who has made a mistake or acknowleges that they possibly could make a mistake must be a total noob. Iinterestingly enough, highly experienced and well respected climbers have accidents from time to time. Wonder how that works..........?
(This post was edited by tradmanclimbs on Nov 5, 2007, 4:00 PM)
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markc
Nov 5, 2007, 3:57 PM
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To follow VTG comments, I'd urge all not to treat a feature there for convenience like it's the gospel. If your partner trims her rope, an old middle mark is no longer accurate (and tape markings if that's still on the other end). I bought a bi-weave rope out of a desire for convenience, but I don't take that as justification to turn off critical reasoning when my ass in on the line. We're talking about three times the length of rope here. Someone with experience not running on autopilot should have a feel for that.
While I wouldn't try to talk someone out of stopper knots, they're not a cure-all. I very rarely use them, as I've seen ropes without knots do some amazing things to get stuck. YMMV, but know the advantages and disadvantages.
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tradmanclimbs
Nov 5, 2007, 4:06 PM
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Marc You inadvertantly hit the nail on the head with your auto piolet comment. The longer you climb the more likly you are to operate on auto piolet from time to time. The simpler that things are the less likly we are to screw them up.
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murf
Nov 5, 2007, 4:25 PM
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tradmanclimbs wrote: Marc You inadvertantly hit the nail on the head with your auto piolet comment. The longer you climb the more likly you are to operate on auto piolet from time to time. The simpler that things are the less likly we are to screw them up.
If you screw them up because you're in a hurry for a beer or a biatch( not even on auto piolet ), you need to make things even more simple. You want to make sure you don't fuck up, not even if you are cold, hurt, have a hard on, using an alien's rope, or whatever? I'll leave it to you to figure out how to make it work ( here's a hint, find both ends ).
I hate rapping, and I either ask or look to see both ends on the ground, every time. Even on the Human Fright anchor, even though I've done that rap a dozen times.
-Murf
(This post was edited by murf on Nov 5, 2007, 4:26 PM)
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