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htotsu
Feb 14, 2007, 3:14 AM
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markc wrote: alexmac wrote: markc wrote: maldaly wrote: alexmac, I'm not sure I understand your point here. That's because he usually doesn't have one. Sorry, you still helping look for WMD's to find a point. This coming from a guy that couldn't find his ass with a headlamp and both hands. Stop bringing irrelevant political rants into climbing discussions every time someone from the US points out you're an idiot. How bout you two crazy kids take the di&^waving contest to PMs? This thread is about someone who sustained a serious injury. Thanks. To the OP, thanks for your willingness to answer people's questions about this. I wish you the best as you heal.
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curt
Feb 14, 2007, 3:34 AM
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the_climber wrote: ...I'm not that old yet, but remember when half the people you climbed with had stitchplates, almost everone could whip together a biner break, and a GriGri was something no-one had ever heard of. It is truely a shame that because a lot of people thought that these devices were a 'short cut' to good belaying such controversy over their use seems to be a daily topic. This especially when the real problem has been a lax approach to belaying in general by many. Belaying is one of the most important parts of the climbing system, but unfortunatly seems to recive far less respect than it is due... I think this observation is dead-on. Perhaps that explains why so many posters have basically said "oh well, that could happen to anybody." Don't people actually know how to belay anymore? Curt
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epoch
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Feb 14, 2007, 4:01 AM
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curt wrote: Perhaps that explains why so many posters have basically said "oh well, that could happen to anybody." Don't people actually know how to belay anymore? Curt And I went off to find the infamous "foot belay"... ...but could not find it no matter how hard I tried. Dammmnnn you curt. That's a fine example of belay ingenuity, and I'm sure that it did the job well.
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tisar
Feb 14, 2007, 8:24 AM
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cracklover wrote: [..] Hmm, unless and until you figure out how and why she dropped you, I wouldn't make any assumptions. I wonder if it's more your shock, pain, and perhaps a little anger that's talking here. You're beating up on both yourself and your belayer. Knowing what you know now, is there anything that you actually would do differently? If not, you really have only three logical choices: 1 - Accept the possibility that this could happen again without warning with you as either climber or belayer, 2 - dig a little deeper to find out what happened, or 3 - stop taking lead falls. [..] It's a shame this thread mostly degenerated into one of those stupid to-gri-or-not-to-gri flame-wars while the most demanding question (besides Gail's healing process) is still not answered: What happend that caused the belayer to drop her? Gail, I guess you and your belayer are also interested to find an answer. Maybe you can go back to her and ask her about her exact belay method. Is it pinch and slide? How many fingers does she use to pinch? Does she grab both of the ropes at one time as Gabe (cracklover) said? ... Thanks in advance! - Daniel
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gblauer
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Feb 14, 2007, 1:46 PM
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What happend that caused the belayer to drop her? Gail, I guess you and your belayer are also interested to find an answer. Maybe you can go back to her and ask her about her exact belay method. Is it pinch and slide? How many fingers does she use to pinch? Does she grab both of the ropes at one time as Gabe (cracklover) said? ... Thanks in advance! - Daniel Daniel, I will ask her today, document her responses and post later this evening. With each passing day, I remember more things; I think I remember thinking that she was too far from the wall. I don't know if that is true, the only way I will know is to: 1) Ask her 2) Get up to the top of the climb and look down while my belayer moves to the spot I saw her in. There was one other witness (she was standing next to my belayer). I haven't had a chance to talk with her.
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vertical_planar
Feb 14, 2007, 2:19 PM
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Thanks for sharing this My opinion is that routine is the single most dangerous habit in climbing Will use the lessons learned by your story to renew the attention of all belayes I know (including myself)
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tisar
Feb 14, 2007, 2:25 PM
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gblauer wrote: Daniel, I will ask her today, document her responses and post later this evening. With each passing day, I remember more things; I think I remember thinking that she was too far from the wall. I don't know if that is true, the only way I will know is to: 1) Ask her 2) Get up to the top of the climb and look down while my belayer moves to the spot I saw her in. There was one other witness (she was standing next to my belayer). I haven't had a chance to talk with her. Hey Gail, that'd be really cool. I've been dropped by my belayer once (just ten feet, with no harm whatsoever). Who's fault? Easy to blame him, but it was mine. And only mine. I taught him and forgot to tell him the "keep your fingers outa the belay" secret. Could have been as well a 30 footer with a different outcome. Needless to say I still climb with him. And by now he's amongst the best and most reliable belayers I know. I hope the analysis of your accident will have a similar outcome. Sucks to loose partners. Best vibes and wishes, Daniel
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scottface
Feb 14, 2007, 2:26 PM
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Gail, Real sorry to hear about that. Speedy recovery. Silver Lining=EPC will still be there when you get better. Scott
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markc
Feb 14, 2007, 3:26 PM
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gblauer wrote: cracklover wrote: 3) Cull the herd; select your belayers carefully and only allow those you trust to give you a belay Unless you knew in advance that this partner was less than safe, and chose to climb with her anyway, this is both unfair and unrealistic. 4) Keep your circle small; know your belayers, constantly check on their potential for distraction, moods and energy level Knowing what you know now, is there anything that you actually would do differently? If not, you really have only three logical choices: 1 - Accept the possibility that this could happen again without warning with you as either climber or belayer, 2 - dig a little deeper to find out what happened, or 3 - stop taking lead falls. Don't expect to figure it all out instantly, but perhaps posting here can be a tiny help/start. GO Actually, I was concerned about my belayer. I knew that she had climbed for a few hours and that she was tired. My gut told me "no" but I climbed anyways. So, I guess I will add: 5) Listen to your gut. Also, my other lessons, "cull the herd", "keep your circle small" are still valid, for me anyways. You see I do a LOT of coaching and I act as a guinea pig for many new belayers (with back up). I will no longer be a guinea pig. "Listening to your gut" is good to have on the list in any climbing scenario. Sometimes it may just be nerves to shake off, and other times I think it's an unconscious awareness of something wrong. Taking time to work it out (if the situation allows) is the safer bet than disregarding it. Still, I understand both what you and Gabe are saying regarding trust in belayers. I'd say you had that trust, and it probably seemed well-placed before the accident. You brought up something else I was thinking of. I recently introduced a friend to climbing, and went over belaying briefly before the weather turned. I think he has the potential to be a good climber and belayer. How does he get from a to b without being a less-than optimal belayer? I agree that being selective is necessary, but I don't want to take it to such an extreme that I'm not willing to widen my circle. Regarding my last post, I offer my apologizes. Htotsu was right, this isn't the proper place. I'm glad your pain isn't great, and that you have a positive attitude in moving forward.
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jt512
Feb 14, 2007, 3:41 PM
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tisar wrote: I've been dropped by my belayer once (just ten feet, with no harm whatsoever). Who's fault? Easy to blame him, but it was mine. And only mine. I taught him and forgot to tell him the "keep your fingers outa the belay" secret. Could have been as well a 30 footer with a different outcome.
markc wrote: I recently introduced a friend to climbing, and went over belaying briefly before the weather turned. I think he has the potential to be a good climber and belayer. How does he get from a to b without being a less-than optimal belayer? See a pattern? That's why people are getting dropped right and left. In 1985 when I took my first climbing lesson we spent the entire morning learning to belay. Today the typical climber gets maybe 15 minutes of instruction in the gym. Jay
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cracklover
Feb 14, 2007, 3:54 PM
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jt512 wrote: See a pattern? That's why people are getting dropped right and left. In 1985 when I took my first climbing lesson we spent the entire morning learning to belay. Today the typical climber gets maybe 15 minutes of instruction in the gym. Jay While I agree with the basic premise that some people take a lackadaisical approach to teaching belaying, it's not hard to do if you really know what you're doing, and it doesn't need to take that long. In a one-on-one setting, I can teach a complete novice how to safely TR belay with an ATC in 15 minutes. I have taught literally hundreds of people, and to the best of my knowledge, none have ever dropped anyone (and I follow a number of their climbing careers). GO
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crackrn
Feb 14, 2007, 3:58 PM
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vertical_planar wrote: Thanks for sharing this My opinion is that routine is the single most dangerous habit in climbing Will use the lessons learned by your story to renew the attention of all belayes I know (including myself) Ditto. It's been a long time since I've climbed in a gym; always used an ATC there. I've been trying to remember my method...don't think it's pinch and slide but DO remember that it is palm up. I've caught many falls with that method but want to scrutinize it again. Always room for improvement.
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reno
Feb 14, 2007, 3:58 PM
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jt512 wrote: In 1985 when I took my first climbing lesson we spent the entire morning learning to belay. Today the typical climber gets maybe 15 minutes of instruction in the gym. My climbing mentor when I was learning would keep a handful of small rocks in his jacket pocket. If I took my hand off the rope, he'd throw a rock at me. Took one on the chin ONCE, and that was the end of a bad habit.
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markc
Feb 14, 2007, 4:11 PM
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jt512 wrote: tisar wrote: I've been dropped by my belayer once (just ten feet, with no harm whatsoever). Who's fault? Easy to blame him, but it was mine. And only mine. I taught him and forgot to tell him the "keep your fingers outa the belay" secret. Could have been as well a 30 footer with a different outcome. markc wrote: I recently introduced a friend to climbing, and went over belaying briefly before the weather turned. I think he has the potential to be a good climber and belayer. How does he get from a to b without being a less-than optimal belayer? See a pattern? That's why people are getting dropped right and left. In 1985 when I took my first climbing lesson we spent the entire morning learning to belay. Today the typical climber gets maybe 15 minutes of instruction in the gym. I should have explained more fully. On a day out at the crag, my friend watched us belay, I went over the process with him, coached him a bit with the rope, and he belayed once with a backup. I told him he's not ready to belay without greater instruction either at the gym or when the season starts up. I'd say I introduced him to the process of belaying, not that he knows how to belay. It was his second day on rock, and I thought we might fit in another trip outside (and resume the lesson in full) before the weather turned. Depending upon the gym, I'd say they do a bare-bones belay lesson. At my gym, you have to show you can catch announced and unannounced toprope falls right after your class, but I see people on the floor making mistakes an hour later. I don't count on a gym class to fully instruct new partners on the complexities of belaying.
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the_climber
Feb 14, 2007, 4:47 PM
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cracklover wrote: jt512 wrote: See a pattern? That's why people are getting dropped right and left. In 1985 when I took my first climbing lesson we spent the entire morning learning to belay. Today the typical climber gets maybe 15 minutes of instruction in the gym. Jay While I agree with the basic premise that some people take a lackadaisical approach to teaching belaying, it's not hard to do if you really know what you're doing, and it doesn't need to take that long. In a one-on-one setting, I can teach a complete novice how to safely TR belay with an ATC in 15 minutes. I have taught literally hundreds of people, and to the best of my knowledge, none have ever dropped anyone (and I follow a number of their climbing careers). GO I agree with both of you to a point. It kind of goes along with what I was saying earlier. If you drive home the point and the importance of their role as a belayer it doesn't take long to teach good basic belay skills. Problem is so many of those individuals teaching belaying in gyms are far to casual about it. The respect that belaying is due isn't thaught in a way taht noobs 'get it'. You can't set a "15mins to great belaying course". Hey some people may get it and remember it in 5, bust some need an hour just to get them basics. Many of us lable it as an easy skill.... well it is when it's second nature. If you learn it right, but remember it wrong, or develop bad habbits.... Well, people start getting dropped.
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cracklover
Feb 14, 2007, 5:35 PM
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You're right, and I should have mentioned the following: After that 15 minutes, I often had the ability to keep an eye on them for the next month, as they only climbed at my gym, with me as a supervisor. Most of them only needed a very occasional tip, but there were a few of them that required a lot of remedial attention, though they did eventually all become excellent belayers. GO
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jt512
Feb 15, 2007, 2:08 AM
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cracklover wrote: jt512 wrote: See a pattern? That's why people are getting dropped right and left. In 1985 when I took my first climbing lesson we spent the entire morning learning to belay. Today the typical climber gets maybe 15 minutes of instruction in the gym. Jay While I agree with the basic premise that some people take a lackadaisical approach to teaching belaying, it's not hard to do if you really know what you're doing, and it doesn't need to take that long. In a one-on-one setting, I can teach a complete novice how to safely TR belay with an ATC in 15 minutes. I have taught literally hundreds of people, and to the best of my knowledge, none have ever dropped anyone (and I follow a number of their climbing careers). GO First of all, we were taught pinch-and-slide, which takes longer to master than that two-handed crap they teach n00bs nowadays. Secondly, we were not taught a specific top-rope belay method, and then later taught a lead-belay method. We were taught a single unified method that could be applied to either top-roping or lead belaying. Third, we were expected to be able to catch the worst possible lead fall, unsupervised, right away. Typically, the student would be seconding the instructor on the student's first climb, and hence, he'd have to lead belay immediately. Often, the student's second climb ever would consist of seconding the instructor on a multi-pitch route, so the student had to be able to reliably catch a factor-2 fall immediately. You gonna' teach all than in 15 minutes, and then trust your own life to that student? That said, I don't think you can really teach the average student to top-rope belay well in 15 minutes. I'll bet few of them are really good at keeping the right amount of slack in the rope, for example. The standards are just lower today. Jay
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jt512
Feb 15, 2007, 2:29 AM
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cracklover wrote: You're right, and I should have mentioned the following: After that 15 minutes, I often had the ability to keep an eye on them for the next month, as they only climbed at my gym, with me as a supervisor. Most of them only needed a very occasional tip, but there were a few of them that required a lot of remedial attention, though they did eventually all become excellent belayers. So, really, then, in 15 min. you are teaching just enough so that they can belay under tightly controlled circumstances with supervision. Imagine, instead, that they would immediately be belaying you, unsupervised, while seconding you on a multi-pitch route. Furthermore, after they leave you that day, you expect them to be able to competently belay anybody on a multi-pitch route. Belayers today rarely get this level of instruction. They get 10 or 15 min. of instruction at the gym, and maybe another 10 min. when they start "lead belaying." They rarely know how much slack to keep in the rope for top-roping, never mind leading. They don't know when, why, or how to anchor in. They aren't taught the concept of fall factor, and hence, have no idea that without gloves and both hands on the brake side of the rope they may not be able to control a worst-case-scenario fall. Ask them when they should take in rope to shorten a fall, and you'll inevitably get one of two responses, both wrong: a blank stare or the comment that they try to shorten every fall. And that's if they're using an ATC. Those that have learned on grigris have all of the above problems, combined with the more basic problem that they rarely use the device correctly, and have little if any understanding of how to avoid mistakes that lead to accidents with the device. /rant Jay
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olderic
Feb 15, 2007, 3:07 AM
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Gail - first of all I am sorry you have a serious injury. Coming from one who has had to come back too many times from injuries I know how tough it is - I wish you the best. But I have to ask - what is (was) your point in posting this? What danger are you trying to alert us to? You had climbed with is person and behaved in this way (practice "Whipper") mutiple times before if I read the thread correctly. This was an accident - what's the point? Are you trying to make your self feel better by blaming her? I think this whole concept of taking practice whippers kind of silly (and plenty of females do it in my primary gym too - maybe it's a gender thing) in fact i think Arno's whole thing is kind of silly (although I know that will be viewed at blasphamey on this site - and it certainly has been lucrative for him). Maybe you shoul just concentrate on climbing in the future and the falls will take care of themselves. Or maybe I've had too much Valentine's Day wine and shouldn't be concerned about fixiing every thread on retart.climing.com. I think I've got something better to do upstairs... tata
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gblauer
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Feb 15, 2007, 3:38 AM
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olderic, I suspect you are alone on this Valentine's Day.
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billl7
Feb 15, 2007, 3:52 AM
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gblauer wrote: olderic, I suspect you are alone on this Valentine's Day. yyyyooooOOOUCH! As my wife's younger brother used to be fond of saying: "Burned your leather face!" ahem ... my wife is working tonight
(This post was edited by billl7 on Feb 15, 2007, 4:06 AM)
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jakedatc
Feb 15, 2007, 4:08 AM
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gblauer wrote: olderic, I suspect you are alone on this Valentine's Day. highly doubt it.. even if his wife pushes him away Flash will always love him
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olderic
Feb 15, 2007, 3:10 PM
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jakedatc wrote: gblauer wrote: olderic, I suspect you are alone on this Valentine's Day. highly doubt it.. even if his wife pushes him away Flash will always love him Yup you're right Jake. Smooched with both my doggie and my wife last night.
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vegastradguy
Feb 15, 2007, 3:55 PM
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jt512 wrote: cracklover wrote: You're right, and I should have mentioned the following: After that 15 minutes, I often had the ability to keep an eye on them for the next month, as they only climbed at my gym, with me as a supervisor. Most of them only needed a very occasional tip, but there were a few of them that required a lot of remedial attention, though they did eventually all become excellent belayers. So, really, then, in 15 min. you are teaching just enough so that they can belay under tightly controlled circumstances with supervision. Imagine, instead, that they would immediately be belaying you, unsupervised, while seconding you on a multi-pitch route. Furthermore, after they leave you that day, you expect them to be able to competently belay anybody on a multi-pitch route. Belayers today rarely get this level of instruction. They get 10 or 15 min. of instruction at the gym, and maybe another 10 min. when they start "lead belaying." They rarely know how much slack to keep in the rope for top-roping, never mind leading. They don't know when, why, or how to anchor in. They aren't taught the concept of fall factor, and hence, have no idea that without gloves and both hands on the brake side of the rope they may not be able to control a worst-case-scenario fall. Ask them when they should take in rope to shorten a fall, and you'll inevitably get one of two responses, both wrong: a blank stare or the comment that they try to shorten every fall. And that's if they're using an ATC. Those that have learned on grigris have all of the above problems, combined with the more basic problem that they rarely use the device correctly, and have little if any understanding of how to avoid mistakes that lead to accidents with the device. /rant Jay Jay's got a good point here. Personally, i think that the basics of belaying are probably 15-20 minutes worth of information. That said, I think that there is no possible way to adequately teach someone how to be a good belayer in that amount of time. Aside from the nuances of belaying, there's also something I rarely see in the gym today- respect for the life on the other end of the rope. This, I think, needs to be key when teaching a belay, and I think that before my time in climbing, this was commonplace- folks belaying understood that they literally had someone's life in their hands. Today, I do not believe that this is the case for the majority of new climbers in a gym setting (or even in an outdoor setting, trad or sport, i would argue). The most important part of the belay is the respect for the life you have in your hands- its this respect that will make you want to learn to belay properly, as well as be ready to deal with problems when belaying without compromising the safety of the leader.
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roy_hinkley_jr
Feb 15, 2007, 3:55 PM
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olderic wrote: I think this whole concept of taking practice whippers kind of silly (and plenty of females do it in my primary gym too - maybe it's a gender thing) in fact i think Arno's whole thing is kind of silly (although I know that will be viewed at blasphamey on this site - and it certainly has been lucrative for him). Maybe you shoul just concentrate on climbing in the future and the falls will take care of themselves. Bingo! The whole warrior way is just a bunch of hooey sold to the gullible types that buy every new age self-help book on the shelf. Great for Arno to have figured out an untapped market. Pity for the suckers who buy into it all. Practice whippers always has been, and always will be, dumb. There is zero benefit and, as this thread proves, some non-minor risk.
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