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tradmanclimbs
Nov 6, 2007, 4:01 AM
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Ja, that sounds like a decent system. i would have to try it to see if it has any disadvantages. Thing is nobody ever does that. its not common practice. What we are talking about is a product out there with a potentualy fatal flaw when used by common average climbers. interestingly enough most of the guys touting how 3 marks on a rope shouldn't matter don't climb with that system. Some of the posters who do have a rope with 3 marks come in saying its confuseing. In the other thread russwalling a seasoned wall vetran and his partners first impression of the tripple mark rope they used was "I wonder how long it will take for someone to get killed with one of these things?"
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jt512
Nov 6, 2007, 4:10 AM
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ja1484 wrote: Seriously, I don't know why this is still going on. Knot the ends of your rope. Clip the knots to a locking carabiner. Clip said carabiner to your belay loop. At this point, you *cannot* rappel off the ends of the rope without gear breakage, and the knots are directly in front of your danglies the whole way down, making it easy to manage/inspect them (as your danglies well know). Should you lose control of the rappel, you will zip to the ends of the rope, but not the ground. You will likely need a new pair of underwear post haste, but will remain alive (for the time being). If you want to be even more pedantic/paranoid, throw an autoblock in the mix, although that's edging close to overdoing it.
And if you want to be more pedantic than that note that, should you lose control of the rappel, you will fall a distance h = min(h1, h2), where h1 is your height above the ground and h2 is half the length of your rope minus the distance you have rappelled before losing control.
HTH
Jay
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scotchie
Nov 6, 2007, 4:41 AM
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Glad to hear that you saw the end of the rope in time to catch the mistake!
My rope doesn't have a middle mark. I count out the armlenghts to get to the middle (18 of my armlengths ~= 30 meters). With or without marks, I can find the middle. You can also lay both coils of rope side-by-side before throwing them, and check that they're about equal size.
My old rope has 10m marks, and I don't think I ever used them. In my new rope, I guestimate the length remaining by the size of the coil.
It's a good practice to always ask your belayer or folks on the ground if the ends are down before rappelling. Don't expect them to be paying attention to your rappel setup unless you mention it.
It's also a good idea to get in the habit of always tieing stopper knots. After developing this habit, in those cases where you identify stuck-ropes as a possibility, the fact that you are not putting in stoppers will seem "wierd", and this will force you to automatically check the ends as you rappel.
Finally, whoever said that this can happen to any of us made a good point. Thanks for sounding out the alarm and reminding all of us to be vigilant!
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ja1484
Nov 6, 2007, 4:42 AM
Post #54 of 120
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tradmanclimbs wrote: Ja, that sounds like a decent system. i would have to try it to see if it has any disadvantages. Thing is nobody ever does that. its not common practice.
I would think, then, that people need to change their practices, or stop bitching about dying from rappel accidents. They can take their pick.
Bottom line, the marks on a rope really shouldn't matter (although, to your credit, they will) when rappelling, as those doing so should be conscious enough of the situation to keep an eye on their life critical rope safety system.
But alas...
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bnoble
Nov 6, 2007, 4:44 AM
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Wow, I never realized that the 3 mark system was so flawed. Im glad I read this because I happen to own a rope with 3 marks. The two end marks are three dashes and the middle mark is solid. This is less confusing because the middle mark is the solid mark, like all ropes that only have one mark. I generally agree with tradman in that three marks can be very dangerous especially if the end marks are solid. I will always have to tell new partners about my retarded rope now. Thanks for the heads up. And im not one of the perfect people; I was nearly lowered off the end of my rope one time which is even easier to prevent.
Oh, and in reply to Ja- an autoblock is never over doing it if you can't see both ends touching the ground. Even with your system that prevents you from falling off the end of your rope in the event that you lose control of the rappell, you are still subject to ledge out or ground fall if you are on the final rappell of the route. An autoblock will prevent this.
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wmfork
Nov 6, 2007, 6:15 AM
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Ouch... tough crowd:
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ja1484
Nov 6, 2007, 12:43 PM
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bnoble wrote: Oh, and in reply to Ja- an autoblock is never over doing it if you can't see both ends touching the ground. Even with your system that prevents you from falling off the end of your rope in the event that you lose control of the rappell, you are still subject to ledge out or ground fall if you are on the final rappell of the route. An autoblock will prevent this.
Neither of these is false, but typically I'm only going to invest the time to either set up some knots in the end or install an autoblock, not both. I'd like to finish rappelling some time this week.
The far easier solution is just to not lose control of the f*cking rappel, which is the system I use...every time.
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markc
Nov 6, 2007, 2:06 PM
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yokese wrote: markc wrote: I don't think I've ever seen someone strike a nail on the head by accident. Well,  now you have...  more info here
Nail guns are aid. If he had done that with a proper hammer I would stand corrected.
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desertwanderer81
Nov 6, 2007, 4:15 PM
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curt wrote: You're merely a fucking idiot, who's time will still come. Curt
From this post, it sounds to me like the OP has learned his lesson and will be much more conscious of what he is doing in the future. We all make mistakes. I've caught a few seasoned and salty vets (well 2) without their harnesses doubled back. So long as we can learn from it and we don't die/get seriously hurt, they're good mistakes.
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coastal_climber
Nov 6, 2007, 8:55 PM
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Glad you're ok. Time to be looking for a duodess...
>Cam
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winkwinklambonini
Nov 6, 2007, 9:57 PM
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It seems to me the op would have had to tie a knot on a bight in the short end while he put it through the belay device, or the rope would have just fell out of the anchor, or at least the uneven weight would have clued him in. Is the anchor a massive tree?
Funny story:
When I was starting out, I bought a rope and brought it straight to the North End at Cathedrel. I went to the top of Bird's Nest and clipped the rope to my anchor where there was a ziptie that I assumed for some reason was the middle. When I threw the rope off, it both was both completely on the ground, and totally tangled. 
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btreanor
Nov 6, 2007, 10:20 PM
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You're merely a fucking idiot, who's time will still come.
Curt
I mostly just lurk around these boards when I am procrastinating, and I've seen you post some good things here and there. But now I see that, really, you are sort of prick. No wonder other folks jump on you in other threads. The guy admits he made several mistakes. Climb off your high horse and give it a rest, OK?
Sorry for the harsh response. I'm sure you are a fine fellow when you have had your coffee or beer or whatever you are missing today.
Brian
(This post was edited by btreanor on Nov 6, 2007, 10:20 PM)
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retr2327
Nov 6, 2007, 10:50 PM
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"Knot the ends of your rope. Clip the knots to a locking carabiner. Clip said carabiner to your belay loop."
An interesting idea. On the plus side, it would seem likely to keep the knots out of cracks, etc., thereby decreasing or negating one of the main arguments against knotting the ends.
On the other hand, a rope being rapped on usually twists around quite a bit in the process; if you anchored the ends to your harness so that they couldn't twist freely, I would think you'd get the mother of all clusterf**cks as a result. If so, that ends up presenting its own safety risks (nothing like being stuck 10 feet above the rap station with your ropes in a hopeless knot, etc.).
Comments from those who've tried this?
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ja1484
Nov 6, 2007, 11:13 PM
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retr2327 wrote: "Knot the ends of your rope. Clip the knots to a locking carabiner. Clip said carabiner to your belay loop." An interesting idea. On the plus side, it would seem likely to keep the knots out of cracks, etc., thereby decreasing or negating one of the main arguments against knotting the ends. On the other hand, a rope being rapped on usually twists around quite a bit in the process; if you anchored the ends to your harness so that they couldn't twist freely, I would think you'd get the mother of all clusterf**cks as a result. If so, that ends up presenting its own safety risks (nothing like being stuck 10 feet above the rap station with your ropes in a hopeless knot, etc.). Comments from those who've tried this?
To Wit:
Never been an issue for me. Once I reach the next rap station I keep the rap ropes in my rap device as I anchor in directly on a purcell prusik. Once this is done, I unclip the ends and remove my rap device from the rope, then run the remaining rope length through my hands to the knots. Rope twirls a bit, untwists just fine, only takes a few extra seconds (many less than if you had to un-snarl a spaghetti coil).
Believe me, I've been trying to find disadvantages to this method for a while now. I really haven't been able to come up with any problem that doesn't also occur using the "traditional" method.
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wmfork
Nov 6, 2007, 11:20 PM
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slablizard wrote: No...sorry, I didn't mean to sound sarcastic or anything...it's just that it takes quite a bit to pull half of a rope trough the anchors...a whole lot more than 10 meters.
There were biners on the anchor. My partner found what he thought was the middle, clipped it into the said biners and threw the rope down (15 ft of incline with bushes and other crap followed by 40 ft of overhang). 200 ft rope on a TR setup of no more than 60 ft.. no problem right? Btw, for whatever reason, we decided to hike up together to set up the TR (probably cause it'd been cold as f&*k to stand around).
I'd have hit packed snow, but I also had ice tools on my harness.
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pylonhead
Nov 7, 2007, 12:32 AM
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ja1484 wrote: retr2327 wrote: "Knot the ends of your rope. Clip the knots to a locking carabiner. Clip said carabiner to your belay loop." An interesting idea. On the plus side, it would seem likely to keep the knots out of cracks, etc., thereby decreasing or negating one of the main arguments against knotting the ends. On the other hand, a rope being rapped on usually twists around quite a bit in the process; if you anchored the ends to your harness so that they couldn't twist freely, I would think you'd get the mother of all clusterf**cks as a result. If so, that ends up presenting its own safety risks (nothing like being stuck 10 feet above the rap station with your ropes in a hopeless knot, etc.). Comments from those who've tried this? To Wit: Never been an issue for me. Once I reach the next rap station I keep the rap ropes in my rap device as I anchor in directly on a purcell prusik. Once this is done, I unclip the ends and remove my rap device from the rope, then run the remaining rope length through my hands to the knots. Rope twirls a bit, untwists just fine, only takes a few extra seconds (many less than if you had to un-snarl a spaghetti coil). Believe me, I've been trying to find disadvantages to this method for a while now. I really haven't been able to come up with any problem that doesn't also occur using the "traditional" method.
It sounds interesting.
In this post, the initial poster was rappelling a single pitch that he had just topped out. Do you typically pull up both ends of the rope after threading the anchor when rappelling single pitch climbs?
He also had to clean the climb, which might end up being harder or impossible once the rope doesn't run through the protection.
Comments?
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ja1484
Nov 7, 2007, 12:36 AM
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I typically do do this on single pitch climbs if I can't visually confirm that both ends are on the deck.
As for cleaning the pitch, that's what seconds are for 
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drjghl
Nov 7, 2007, 12:49 AM
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Dude. You are one lucky mother f....... And thanks for the post.
When setting up the rappel, nothing about the rope itself should matter: middle marks, end marks, biweave, taping. In general, after passing one end of the rope through the anchor, take both ends and lower them together. This well generally put you at the middle.
Note. If I do a short rappel and no one is there to tell me both ends are down, I lower each end so I'm at the middle. Almost killed myself by not doing this on a wall much shorter than 100 feet.
As for stopper knots, would only use them in special cases. Those knots can cause some major epics. If you haven't had one yet, you haven't climbed enough.
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jt512
Nov 7, 2007, 12:50 AM
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btreanor wrote: curt wrote: You're merely a fucking idiot, who's time will still come. I mostly just lurk around these boards when I am procrastinating, and I've seen you post some good things here and there. But now I see that, really, you are sort of prick. No wonder other folks jump on you in other threads. The guy admits he made several mistakes.
Curt's response was harsh. I might have said that the OP's attitude toward rappelling was entirely too nonchalant. But to have such an attitude toward rappelling is pretty fucking idiotic, so Curt's synopsis, though curt, was pretty appropriate.
Consider the original post:
lou wrote: The only reason I did not rapp off the end, was cause I had happen to look for my next piece instead of pushin off. [...] I had blindly rapped off the anchor.
Middle mark or not, you don't cast off on a single-pitch rappel without attempting to visually verify that your ropes have reached the ground. This should go without saying, yet the OP reports, "I had blindly rapped off the anchor." Once you're on rappel, you have like exactly three things to think about: (1) maintaining control of the rappel, (2) checking for snarls in the rope below you, and (3) not rapping off the fucking ends of the rope. Both (2) and (3) mean that you should be looking at the ropes below you constantly, yet the OP reports, "the only reason I did not rapp [sic] off the end, was cause I happened [emphasis added] to look for my next piece...". This sounds like gross complacency. Idiocy is close enough.
Every time someone posts one of these I-almost-rapped-off-the-ends-of-my-rope stories, the n00bs always take away the message that they should always tie knots in the ends of their rappel ropes. THIS IS THE WRONG MESSAGE. If you are doing a 1-pitch rappel, you should never have to tie knots in the ends of your rope if you always visually verify that both ends of your rope are on the ground. Sure, tie knots in the ends of your ropes if you have any doubt that your ropes have reached the ground, but tying knots doesn't take the place of using your eyes and your brain to prevent your making a catastrophic error.
Jay
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curt
Nov 7, 2007, 2:56 AM
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btreanor wrote: curt wrote: You're merely a fucking idiot, who's time will still come. Curt I mostly just lurk around these boards when I am procrastinating, and I've seen you post some good things here and there. But now I see that, really, you are sort of prick. No wonder other folks jump on you in other threads. The guy admits he made several mistakes. Climb off your high horse and give it a rest, OK? Brian
Well, this particular dimwit previously posted some unwarranted comments in a thread I authored about saving a local climbing area here in AZ from mining. So, I guess that history may have influenced my post. However (and although I certainly don't wish any harm to come to this guy) he is indeed, in my estimation an idiot--who might better take up checkers or shuffle board as a hobby.
Curt
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microbarn
Nov 7, 2007, 3:38 AM
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I got a rope that has a middle mark and it changes weave on the ends. It still alerts people that the ends are coming if they desire it, but there is no confusion of black mark with the change in weave.
Of course, some ropes have a change in weave at the middle.....so this doesn't solve everything either.
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tradmanclimbs
Nov 7, 2007, 5:02 AM
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Personaly It is MYOP that if you are trying to enginere an idiot proof rope the way to do it is to have a biweave or distinct middle mark then the last 5 meters of each end of the rope are safty orange. haveing 3 relativly small marks on the rope that are garunteed to fade and become indistinct with use is a good way to get some idiot killed
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cameltoe
Nov 7, 2007, 4:04 PM
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IMHO, relying on rope marks is the problem, learn to manage your ropes with your hands
It's not rocket science : we all know how long our arms are, this gives you your 'pull length' through the anchor, divide half your rope length by your pull length and hey thats the number of pulls, Now not precise i know and sometimes you have to use your brain as you can't make a full pull, but ...
alternatively - double strand coil your rope before you head to the rap station (as you knwo thats your next port of call) then pull both ends at once..
and I have to agree with a previous poster - 10m or half a rope??
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