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markc
Nov 5, 2007, 4:26 PM
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tradmanclimbs wrote: Marc You inadvertantly hit the nail on the head with your auto piolet comment. The longer you climb the more likly you are to operate on auto piolet from time to time. The simpler that things are the less likly we are to screw them up.
I don't think I've ever seen someone strike a nail on the head by accident. I agree with you that there can be a world of distractions when you're rigging a rappel: environmental factors, dehydration and fatigue, hurt partner, etc. I make a conscious effort to stay out of autopilot when doing things that have become habitual. That's when it becomes really easy to overlook a mistake, and it's why double-checks and buddy checks are so important.
I don't have personal experience with end-marks on ropes. I can see where they would be useful, but I can also see how someone unfamiliar with them could get confused. I'd hope there would be an internal voice saying "That was too fast," as well as other checks that would catch this sort of mistake before the climber gets on rappel. I'd hope the marking would at least vary from the middle-mark, and I would personally warn a new partner if my rope had them.
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marc801
Nov 5, 2007, 4:30 PM
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There was one thing the OP didn't really make clear and only one other person has mentioned it in this thread....
I've climbed several times with ropes that have both a middle mark and two 10 m markers. I've NEVER seen such a rope where the end markers were not distinctly different from the middle mark. This includes number of marking bands, their width, and even in one case, color.
I'm not arguing for or against the end markers. It's just that much of this thread has progressed with at least some folks appearing to presume that the marks are identical.
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vegastradguy
Nov 5, 2007, 4:33 PM
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tradmanclimbs wrote: Murf, ever rap in the dark when you have been on the go for 20hrs?
yup.
In reply to: ever rap on a rope your partner set up while you were racking gear or changeing clothes or satbalizeing a broken limb etc?
well, not stabilizing a broken limb, but yes.
In reply to: A middle marker is a simple thing and haveing it in the middle of the rope is a simple thing. Putting 3 of them on a rope takes the simple out of it and increases the chance of confusion , accident and death.
you know, i'm surprised at how rabidly against the end markers you are. especially because i seriously doubt that end markers have contributed to any deaths (or accidents, for that matter). the whole purpose of them is to alert the climber to the end of the rope.
In reply to: Supprised at how many people arrogantly claime that if you don't know the diference between 10 and 30m you are a moron that shouldn't be climbing.
no, i said you need to re-evaluate your roped climbing.
i should probably nip this 10m thing in the bud, by the way. end marks on ropes vary, but the average is about 4m, with the most I know of being 6m (Mammut). That's 18 feet. There is a HUGE difference between 18' and 100'- and if you dont notice that you've only pulled 3 arm-lengths through instead of 15 or so, then you need to learn to FOCUS.
In reply to: Well if we were all so good at whipping off 30m then no one would need middle markers and there would be no accidents.
there's a nice slide to the other extreme.
In reply to: People do have rappelling accidents and it is my Opinion as well as the opinion of at least one of the major rope designers that putting 3 marks on a rope vs one mark significantly increases the cahnce for accidental death.
care to name that manufacturer?
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desertwanderer81
Nov 5, 2007, 4:36 PM
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tradmanclimbs wrote: Na, its a stupid system that is either going to get someone killed or allready has gotten people killed. Glad you do eveything perfect and won't ever be fooled by something simple like a middle mark that ain't in the middle...
I am by no means perfect, but I like to be aware of my situation especially when I'm with a new partner, or if I'm tired. Those are the times when this is most important. I don't make a big deal of things, but by just being observant, you can make a good judgement of the situation.
Anyhow, the marks are very different. It isn't that big of a deal.
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tradmanclimbs
Nov 5, 2007, 4:36 PM
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Marc, thats all good stuff and there are a lot of hopes in there. in a perfect world they would all come true. Rope markings fade with use and become less distinct, they also look diferent at night with headlamps. I stick by my guns on this one. One mark is safer than 3 marks.
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jdouble
Nov 5, 2007, 4:58 PM
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vegastradguy wrote: regardless, if you cant tell the difference between 10m and 30m, you should re-evaluate your roped climbing....
Wouldn't he have pulled 50m of rope through the anchor? He missed the middle mark, the partner saw the lowered/tossed rope hit the ground and did not notice the other side being pulled through the protection.......?
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markc
Nov 5, 2007, 5:07 PM
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jdouble wrote: vegastradguy wrote: regardless, if you cant tell the difference between 10m and 30m, you should re-evaluate your roped climbing.... Wouldn't he have pulled 50m of rope through the anchor? He missed the middle mark, the partner saw the lowered/tossed rope hit the ground and did not notice the other side being pulled through the protection.......?
Not from my reading. He clipped in direct, fed the end he was tied to through the anchor, hit the 10m mark, and rappelled. There was never any mention of communication with the partner. In fact, she was taking pictures rather than giving a fireman's belay. It sounds like she thought she was done for the day while her partner was still on the route.
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strongmadsends
Nov 5, 2007, 5:12 PM
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So you climbed on this rope all day and didn't realize that there were three marks on it? I would think you notice something like that roping up or belaying on the first climb, no?
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vegastradguy
Nov 5, 2007, 5:16 PM
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jdouble wrote: vegastradguy wrote: regardless, if you cant tell the difference between 10m and 30m, you should re-evaluate your roped climbing.... Wouldn't he have pulled 50m of rope through the anchor? He missed the middle mark, the partner saw the lowered/tossed rope hit the ground and did not notice the other side being pulled through the protection.......?
i think you're right on that account- still- 50m vs 30m is still a pretty big difference. obviously its difficult to tell exact lengths, but i think most climbers have a general feel for the length of a rope- at least in in the ballpark of 5m or so....
edited to add: if this was the case, then he not only pulled the rope past the 1st end mark, he also pulled it past the middle mark, and then finally stopped at the 2nd end mark- in which case, i would argue that the end marks actually saved him from dropping the rope!
either way, the error was both his and his belayer's, not the ropes.
(This post was edited by vegastradguy on Nov 5, 2007, 6:10 PM)
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aerili
Nov 5, 2007, 5:23 PM
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tradmanclimbs wrote: Marc, thats all good stuff and there are a lot of hopes in there. in a perfect world they would all come true. Rope markings fade with use and become less distinct, they also look diferent at night with headlamps. I stick by my guns on this one. One mark is safer than 3 marks.
I generally agree with tradmanclimbs. My rope (a Mammut) has three marks and I do not like it. Makes everything more confusing for me, esp. when the rope is lying in a heap on the ground and I want to backpack it by flaking it from the middle. The fact that the marks are different doesn't seem to make a big difference when I am looking at it in that situation. tradman is right in that the little space between the middle marks is not that great, and with fading, added grime, and in possible nighttime situations, the extra marks do not seem to make for a KISS set-up.
Also, I do not personally find the end marks to be of any major value in telling my leader they have approximately "x" amount of rope left. I can do this w/out the end markings.
I will probably try to buy my next rope with a single middle mark only.
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tradmanclimbs
Nov 5, 2007, 5:25 PM
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There were several factors that contributed to the near miss. To completly discount one of them (the rope marking system) simply because it does not fit your argument is assinine
(This post was edited by tradmanclimbs on Nov 5, 2007, 5:36 PM)
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wmfork
Nov 5, 2007, 5:39 PM
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vegastradguy wrote: you know, i'm surprised at how rabidly against the end markers you are. especially because i seriously doubt that end markers have contributed to any deaths (or accidents, for that matter). the whole purpose of them is to alert the climber to the end of the rope.
Between my personal experience, this thread, and this one. That's 3 near accidents. Does somebody have to actually die or get seriously hurt?
Of course we are all responsible for our own actions, but when a purported safety feature can cause such confusions, it really is a BAD idea.
I'll go out of my way to state I am VERY disappointed with Mammut. I have contacted them after the previous thread and told them they have released ropes where the end mark is EXACTLY the same as the middle mark (2 dashes), the only response I got back is "oh, they are different now". Soooo, what happens to all the ropes you geniuses sold with the same marking???
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roseraie
Nov 5, 2007, 5:52 PM
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I believe Human Fright is aptly named. The OP had his "human fright" on it and I had mine in 2003.
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pylonhead
Nov 5, 2007, 10:58 PM
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wmfork wrote: Between my personal experience, this thread, and this one. That's 3 near accidents. Does somebody have to actually die or get seriously hurt?
This is exactly right. It doesn't matter if the middle mark on this rope is different from the end marks. We live in a world where a mark on a rope mean the middle. If you don't know they've added 2 additional marks, then when you see a mark, you'll think: middle. And like the poster, this might cause you to make assumptions that will get you killed.
This shouldn't be an argument about product design vs personal responsibility. Being safe requires both well designed products and vigilance from the climber.
This design pretty obviously falls short of holding up its end of the bargain.
Also, it's pretty clear that the original poster pulled 50m instead of 30m. He says that when he looked down at his next piece to clean, he was surprised to see that his rope wasn't running through it. This could only be true if he pulled too much rope, not too little.
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ja1484
Nov 5, 2007, 11:07 PM
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I would just like to point out, once again, that:
ends of rope > 8Bight x2 > locking crab > belay loop
Solves both the rapping-off-the-end issue and the three-middle-mark "issue".
You people really spent two pages of thread on this?
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slablizard
Nov 5, 2007, 11:13 PM
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Pretty amazing.
How could you think it was the middle of the rope after pulling only what...15 armlenghts of rope up to get to the 10 meters mark?
Glad to hear you survived it!
lou wrote: Came within six feet of rapping off the end of a rope approx. 60 feet up a route at Tahquitz. Thought I would share my blunder. I met a gal at Paradise Forks who was from L.A. and so as things were to come; I met her at Tahquitz for our first climbing date. I brought the gear and she the rope and we started a wonderful day at that lovely hunk of granite. We did some mutipitch thing and did the walk off around the south face and ended up back at lunch rock. Was late in the afternoon and we had time for one more pitch; so I lead the first pitch of Human fright. As I called off belay, the gal I was with decided not to follow. So I clipped the anchors untied and pulled the rope end which was tied to me thru the anchors till I got to the "middle black mark". Happily p thinking of cold beer and hmmmm...other things... I started to rap and pull my gear. I pushed off and stopped at my first piece...removed it...and pushed off to the next...as I was taking that piece out; I decided to look off left and under the overhang to see my next piece; only to see no rope passing thru any of my other lower pieces!!! Then to see the end of the rope ( which should have been thru the pieces) hanging six feet below me. The only reason I did not rapp off the end, was cause I had happen to look for my next piece instead of pushin off.. I can not described the sick feeling I got in my stomach; nausea and a stinking fear. I set two bomber pieces; clipped into them and reset the rap. The black mark I thought was the middle of the rope was the 10 meter mark on the end. Her rope had both a middle mark and two end marks. I had never seen a rope of such...and had blindly rapped off the anchor. From the anchor of Human fright I could not see the base of the route. As I looked at my partner; she was snapping pictures!! Unaware. Might have been a five star photo if she had caught me rapping off the end!! Still have a bad feeling in my gut. Be safe my brothers...and learn from my blunder. [:/] |
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tradmanclimbs
Nov 6, 2007, 12:45 AM
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Slablizard. I am sure you are perfect as well and will never make a mistake. This is not an isolated incident. Middle marks get faded and are easy to miss when pulling a rope. Miss the real middle marker go past it and stop at the fake middle marker. Brain is pre programed to recognize a mark on the rope as the middle of the rope so you feed it through your devise, wrap your auto block 3 times and procede cautiously while watching to see how your rope is doing and you catch the mistake. Report in on internet and be flamed as a fool. But of course you as well as many others on the site are perfect and will never get fooled by anything as simple as a fake middle mark.
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fjclimbsrocks
Nov 6, 2007, 1:00 AM
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Personal preference y'all. I'd rather not know EXACTLY how much rope is left than risk making a bone head mistake and taking a ride. So I'll prolly stick with ropes marked only in the middle Just my opinion.
...but if you've got a rope marked in three spots, and we go climbing together, please tell me. Thanks.
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Tree_wrangler
Nov 6, 2007, 1:19 AM
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In reply to: This is why I always tie knots in the ends of my rope when rapping. I don't care if it's a 30ft climb. I tie my knots. Have to get in the habit so that you'll always do it, no matter what. That way, when you're tired and thinking about other things ;) you won't end up dead.
I won't tell folks to not tie knots....BUT
Those knots can easily be more dangerous than not having them at all, especially if you climb on rock that is rife with "rope eaters". It should NOT be a blind habit, but something you consider and decide to do (or not do) depending on the other variables of your situation. Blind, unwavering habits of any kind can be dangerous, because it suggests that you have become absent-minded and complacent in that portion of your awareness.
That's it. They're a good idea most of the time. But they can totally bone you some of the time.
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jt512
Nov 6, 2007, 2:19 AM
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wmfork wrote: Between my personal experience, this thread, and this one. That's 3 near accidents. Does somebody have to actually die or get seriously hurt?
From an epidemiologic standpoint, I'm inclined to agree with you. The 10-m marks seem to do more harm than good. I can see two benefits to the feature. The first is that they can alert you to when you are nearing the end of the rope while rappelling, decreasing the chance that you will rap off the end of the rope. But the marks increase the chance that you will thread the ropes unevenly, increasing the risk that you will rap off the end of the rope, which at least cancels out the benefit. The second benefit is that your belayer can let you know when you have exactly 10 m of rope left. That way, you know that you have to rig a belay within the next 10 m. However, unless you can judge 10 meters of climbing with great precision, having precise information about having 10 m of rope left isn't much more useful than just having your belayer estimate the amount of rope left by eyeball. So neither benefit seems very important, whereas the downside is catastrophic.
Jay
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philbox
Moderator
Nov 6, 2007, 2:45 AM
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The near miss was in fact the entire fault of the abseiler. It is up to him to ensure that the rope is correctly threaded through the anchor regardless if it has a middle or end mark. Ropes can get chopped. The only way to ensure this is to match up both ends of the rope and pull the rope until the middle is at the anchor. Too many fingers of blame are being levelled elsewhere. It is always easier to look for blame other than the fundamental issue at stake.
Lou the OP had it right when he described it as his blunder. All the other critiques of this near accident are not even close.
Of course it is always worthwhile to evaluate to the Nth degree but the fundamental lesson here for all of us is to never trust anything but to always check that we have done things right, test the set up, come off the anchor and then commit.
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wetrocks
Nov 6, 2007, 3:22 AM
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Didn't read the whole post so maybe someone already stated this, but no need to deal with middle marks at all if you have a rope that changes the sheath weave design mid rope.
These ropes are the best solution. There's no question about the middle. You don't have to worry about the mark wearing off, confusing it with a 10m mark or not being able to find it in the dark.
After I rapped off the end of a rope, I swore I'd only buy these ropes from now on. Many of the reasons mentioned before were factors in the accident, just add one more: unexpected snow. I'm damn sure that if I had had a dual pattern rope that this accident would have been prevented.
Unfortunately these dual weave designs don't come in all ropes. E.g. I needed a dry-dry 70m and couldn't get one that had the dual weave. They probably offer it now though.
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ja1484
Nov 6, 2007, 3:33 AM
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Seriously, I don't know why this is still going on.
Knot the ends of your rope. Clip the knots to a locking carabiner. Clip said carabiner to your belay loop.
At this point, you *cannot* rappel off the ends of the rope without gear breakage, and the knots are directly in front of your danglies the whole way down, making it easy to manage/inspect them (as your danglies well know). Should you lose control of the rappel, you will zip to the ends of the rope, but not the ground. You will likely need a new pair of underwear post haste, but will remain alive (for the time being). If you want to be even more pedantic/paranoid, throw an autoblock in the mix, although that's edging close to overdoing it.
The only real disadvantage is that rope running down the rock face and back up to you may snag upon something. However, unless you are mentally deficient, you'll be keeping an eye on the run of the rope as you descend, pausing *at* or *above* potential snafus to un-snafu them as you go.
I'm not kidding this time, WHAT are we still talking about?
(This post was edited by ja1484 on Nov 6, 2007, 3:35 AM)
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tradmanclimbs
Nov 6, 2007, 3:51 AM
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Philbox. Another perfect person who never makes a mistake. Marks on a rope are commonly used to signify the middle of the rope. While the climber should also use their brain to make sure that they do in fact signify the aproxamate middle of the rope after hundreds and maby even thousands of every day experiences where the middle mark is in fact the middle of the rope the average normal person may be influenced subconciously to accept this information as fact, an accident or in this case a near miss may occur if that mark is not properly placed. While there were several human factors that contributed to this near miss, the rope marking system was certainly a factor as well. I find it quite iteresting that everytime joe nobody posts a near miss or an accident everyone is an instant expert and unfailable in how it NEVER WOULD HAVE HAPPENED TO ME cause I know eveything and NEVER would have been that boneheadded. Then some famous hardman gets the chop and all you guys are quiet as church mice. Fact is that EXPERTS also get the chop in rap accidents. It can and DOES happen. Just recently we tragicly lost an expert on Poko Moonshine in a rapelling accident. As soon as we figured out that it was a genuine seasoned hardman working a hard new rt it was hands off. Not a peep. Joe nobody gets chopped or even has a near miss and all sorts of folks come out of the woodwork preaching about how it shouldn't have happened and its all the victims fault. Rapelling Is Dangerous. Accidents DO Happen even to Experts. A rope marking system that employs 3 marks rather than the standard One mark increases the chance of an accident. Just do the math. Your odds are 2 to 1 that you have the wrong middle mark
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