|
|
|
|
offroute
Sep 8, 2004, 11:05 PM
Post #101 of 124
(16932 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Sep 8, 2004
Posts: 16
|
My climbing partner & I were up at Longs this past weekend while this was all going on. We hiked up Saturday mid-day to bivy at Chasm lake to climb a route on Sunday morning. At about 1pm we hit 11k and were socked in, shortly after we past the split to the boulder field we hit the rain sleet mix and the wind picked up. Visibility dropped to about 20 feet. We reached the SAR hut shortly after where I peered at the thermometer and it was roughly 40 degrees. Neither of us had been to Longs before and following the cairns (maybe too closely) we managed to hike right past Chasm lake in the windy, rainy, sleety, socked-in conditions. After getting that sorted out (a jaunt to 12,600'), and doing some useless scouting in poor visibility we managed to get fairly chilled and grabbed some shelter in one of the little boulder caves. It took some dinner & the sleeping bags to get warmed back up. We were dressed 'relatively' appropriate with weather proof shell & pants, hats, gloves, etc and several layers of various synthetic material and still managed to get chilled. All this was about 2k directly below the summit (The Diamond between us and the summit). The conditions were definitely ripe for hypothermia at the top. After a long night bivy with stong wind spin drifts waking me, we got up about 6am to our gear covered with snow just inside the entrance. A quick reconnaissance mission outside found several inches of snow and 40-60 mph winds. There was really no decision to be made, this wasn't the climbing conditions we were looking for so we bailed. The sun was out, but the wind was relentless all day. Returning back to the trail head at 9,500', grabbed some lunch, discussed plans, power nap, repacked with different gear, we decided to head back up later in the day in hopes of a chance Monday morning at a different route. Just as we started, up we were quickly turned back at the TH by a ranger informing us that the summit was closed indefinitely due to extreme weather conditions. This sounded fishy and it was. After a little probing, we found out about the tradgedy. The only person to summit on Sunday morning was the park ranger who found the body, everyone else that we had met on the way down had turned at the Keyhole or earlier. Apparently, the other rangers had become fairly worried when they had lost radio contact with the lead ranger on the SAR for a couple hours. Anyway, they were hoping to get a helicopter up there, but the wind was far too strong on Sunday for that. By Sunday night, conditions had turned almost perfect. We camped at Longs Peak campground that night, 3am start to go tackle another mountain on Monday morning. As we headed out, we couldn't resist checking to see if they had opened the mtn. back up. As we pulled into the parking lot, we were greeted by dozens of people preparing to head out for the summit via the keyhole. Closure signs were plastered everywhere, yet we saw several people depart anyway. I was really surprised not to see a ranger there. Anyway, we headed off to our target for the day and the weather couldn't have been any better. It was amazing how hard and fast that storm came through.
|
|
|
|
|
alan_ellis
Sep 9, 2004, 1:27 AM
Post #102 of 124
(8507 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Dec 3, 2003
Posts: 136
|
In reply to: Maligning the dead as "idiots" is beyond the pale in terms of crassness and lack of sensitivity, and marks an all-time new low for this site. It's interesting that when someone doesn't have an intelligent rebuttal, they start the insults. You guys just don't get it. Nobody is "maligning the dead as idiots." However, calling it something else is only semantics. I would really like to know how you guys interpret it. Was he "smart"? Did he make the right decisions? Did he use good judgement? If the answer to any of these is yes, then you are making excuses for him. Why are you tip-toeing around the fact that he was stupid? Why not call it like it is and use this event as a learning experience for others? The purpose of this board is to list accidents and learn from them so that we don't make the same mistakes. Do we learn from someone who did all the "right things"? Rather, we mostly learn from people who did the "wrong things." Otherwise, there wouldn't be an Accidents Board because everyone would do everything right. It's not that I am showing disrespect for the dead. That's the last thing I intend to do. But no matter how you sliced it, the guy made many mistakes which caused his death. I'm not saying that all incidents involve idiocy; however, many do, and this was one of them. I should know because I've done idiotic things myself. Anyway, I'm finished with this thread. Regardless of everyone bashing me, I hope everyone has a great week. Safe climbing. Alan Ellis
|
|
|
|
|
paganmonkeyboy
Sep 9, 2004, 2:10 AM
Post #103 of 124
(8507 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Apr 30, 2003
Posts: 663
|
ignorant not idiot compassion and judgement don't seem to mix unwise is not the same as stupid my sympathies for his friends his family and his spirit :( :cry:
|
|
|
|
|
dingus
Sep 9, 2004, 3:16 AM
Post #104 of 124
(8507 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Dec 16, 2002
Posts: 17398
|
In reply to: It's not that I am showing disrespect for the dead. That's the last thing I intend to do. I'm not a world traveler Alan, though I do get around N America a bit. But I have been told that the American male habit of crossing the legs so that the sole of the foot is pointed at another human, is considered extremely disrespectful. So when some 'ugly Norte Americano' does just that, is that person showing disrespect or is he not? Is his awareness the issue? Is his awareness the issue once several people have expressed their opinion to him that crossing his legs like that is disrespectful and yet he continues to do it anyway? He says, "I meant no disrespect, therefore there IS no disrespect." Some would find such logic dubious at best. That's pretty much what the anti-idiot crowd is trying to get across. Cheers Bro DMT
|
|
|
|
|
crimpandgo
Sep 9, 2004, 5:29 AM
Post #105 of 124
(8507 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Apr 15, 2004
Posts: 1005
|
Quote from alan_ellis: You guys just don't get it. Nobody is "maligning the dead as idiots." However, calling it something else is only semantics. I would really like to know how you guys interpret it. Was he "smart"? Did he make the right decisions? Did he use good judgement? If the answer to any of these is yes, then you are making excuses for him. Why are you tip-toeing around the fact that he was stupid? Response: You are a real people person aren't you? Did it ever occur to you that you can Learn from situations WITHOUT trashing the person involved? Go back and read some of the posts. There have been lots of suggestions and conversations about how to handle situations like these. These posts seem to come from people with real experiences and want to share them. Please tell me you are posting just to elicit argurements? because your posts have no merit to this subject whatsoever otherwise.
|
|
|
|
|
petro
Sep 9, 2004, 2:50 PM
Post #106 of 124
(8507 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Dec 17, 2002
Posts: 176
|
Thank you offroute for some real data...
In reply to: My climbing partner & I were up at Longs this past weekend while this was all going on. We hiked up Saturday mid-day to bivy at Chasm lake to climb a route on Sunday morning. At about 1pm we hit 11k and were socked in, shortly after we past the split to the boulder field we hit the rain sleet mix and the wind picked up. Visibility dropped to about 20 feet. We reached the SAR hut shortly after where I peered at the thermometer and it was roughly 40 degrees. Neither of us had been to Longs before and following the cairns (maybe too closely) we managed to hike right past Chasm lake in the windy, rainy, sleety, socked-in conditions. After getting that sorted out (a jaunt to 12,600'), and doing some useless scouting in poor visibility we managed to get fairly chilled and grabbed some shelter in one of the little boulder caves. It took some dinner & the sleeping bags to get warmed back up. We were dressed 'relatively' appropriate with weather proof shell & pants, hats, gloves, etc and several layers of various synthetic material and still managed to get chilled. All this was about 2k directly below the summit (The Diamond between us and the summit). The conditions were definitely ripe for hypothermia at the top. After a long night bivy with stong wind spin drifts waking me, we got up about 6am to our gear covered with snow just inside the entrance. A quick reconnaissance mission outside found several inches of snow and 40-60 mph winds. There was really no decision to be made, this wasn't the climbing conditions we were looking for so we bailed. The sun was out, but the wind was relentless all day. Returning back to the trail head at 9,500', grabbed some lunch, discussed plans, power nap, repacked with different gear, we decided to head back up later in the day in hopes of a chance Monday morning at a different route. Just as we started, up we were quickly turned back at the TH by a ranger informing us that the summit was closed indefinitely due to extreme weather conditions. This sounded fishy and it was. After a little probing, we found out about the tradgedy. The only person to summit on Sunday morning was the park ranger who found the body, everyone else that we had met on the way down had turned at the Keyhole or earlier. Apparently, the other rangers had become fairly worried when they had lost radio contact with the lead ranger on the SAR for a couple hours. Anyway, they were hoping to get a helicopter up there, but the wind was far too strong on Sunday for that. By Sunday night, conditions had turned almost perfect. We camped at Longs Peak campground that night, 3am start to go tackle another mountain on Monday morning. As we headed out, we couldn't resist checking to see if they had opened the mtn. back up. As we pulled into the parking lot, we were greeted by dozens of people preparing to head out for the summit via the keyhole. Closure signs were plastered everywhere, yet we saw several people depart anyway. I was really surprised not to see a ranger there. Anyway, we headed off to our target for the day and the weather couldn't have been any better. It was amazing how hard and fast that storm came through. This is the most intelligent thing posted in this discussion thus far, and you guys can't quit bickering about your petty little amorphophalli expulsions to look at some cold hard facts, and understand that the poor guy endured a larger slice of hell than you can possibly have the mental capacity to understand because you still have blood coursing through your veins. Sheesh!
|
|
|
|
|
avalanche2
Sep 9, 2004, 3:38 PM
Post #107 of 124
(8507 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Sep 7, 2004
Posts: 8
|
id-i-ot n. A mentally deficient person; an extremely foolish or stupid person. ig-no-rant adj. Lacking education or knowledge; not aware; lacking comprehension. Thanks to Webster's. They look like they both fit well! maculated wrote: Guys, I've let this go on for too long because I'm tired and sick and worn out. A kid died. You discussed it, found the causes for yourself, and then you pass judgement. Knock it off or I lock the thread. Now i don't want to piss anyone off especialy when i don't know if this person is an administrator for the site or what their capacity is. However, I find it extremely disturbing especialy if this person is an administrator. How anyone on this site who claims to be a climber would be so audacious as to suggest....no threaten anyone else that if you don't stop expressing your opinion for which i find offensive I will silence you and all those who think like you. Shame on you. I find that attitude the most offensive. As for the rest of you the thing that i think ALL of you seem to be misunderstanding is: This moment of (insert word of least offense Here) for which we are discussing does not define this persons life it only defines his death and the moment he chose to be an (insert word here). Whatever word you use it holds no meaning to his life. As for the person who was trying to compare this guy to well trained and capable climbers who acted either acted foolishly or was a victim of conditions they could not control GIVE ME A BREAK do you even see a difference in your own mind or are you that (INSERT WORD HERE)
|
|
|
|
|
crimpandgo
Sep 9, 2004, 3:58 PM
Post #108 of 124
(8507 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Apr 15, 2004
Posts: 1005
|
This thread didn't have be about a specific person to be a valuable learning experience. All this slandering of the victim just doesn't add to the value of the posts. And if you keep it up, Maculated has all rights to lock the thread based on the site rules. Why would you want to post something so mean about another person anyway? didn't your parents raise you with better manners?
|
|
|
|
|
sarcat
Sep 9, 2004, 4:11 PM
Post #109 of 124
(8507 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Jan 22, 2004
Posts: 1560
|
ditto crimp. Why is it people hide behind the "free speach rhetoric" and "oh my rights are being trampled" rhetoric so "I'm offended" BS? So they can be a mean person and justify themselves? So they can pass judgement and feel guiltless?
|
|
|
|
|
drrock
Sep 9, 2004, 4:26 PM
Post #110 of 124
(8507 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Oct 18, 2003
Posts: 610
|
edit
|
|
|
|
|
sandbag
Sep 9, 2004, 4:28 PM
Post #111 of 124
(8507 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Jan 12, 2003
Posts: 1443
|
jesus, for the love of anything sane, shut this f*Cking thread, oh wait, i forgot where im at... never mind, please carry on with the madness.....
|
|
|
|
|
nthusiastj
Sep 9, 2004, 4:46 PM
Post #112 of 124
(8507 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Sep 3, 2002
Posts: 1994
|
So, is the mountain back open or what?
|
|
|
|
|
maculated
Sep 9, 2004, 6:24 PM
Post #113 of 124
(16932 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Dec 23, 2001
Posts: 6179
|
Sigh . . . splitting . . ..
|
|
|
|
|
maculated
Sep 9, 2004, 6:42 PM
Post #114 of 124
(16932 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Dec 23, 2001
Posts: 6179
|
maculated moved this thread from Moderators & Editors to Injuries & Accidents.
|
|
|
|
|
maculated
Sep 9, 2004, 6:51 PM
Post #115 of 124
(16932 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Dec 23, 2001
Posts: 6179
|
This thread is back in "informative mode." I have split the dialogue about "ignorance and idiots" to community: http://www.rockclimbing.com/...iewtopic.php?t=70192. You are all WELCOME to start a discussion about the implications of going into the backcountry sans tech gear or knowledge, but not in this thread. Do it and you'll get a friendly warning from me. Danke.
|
|
|
|
|
sarcat
Sep 9, 2004, 9:09 PM
Post #116 of 124
(16932 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Jan 22, 2004
Posts: 1560
|
I've often wondered what I would do if I had a friend that wanted to push on when I thought I wanted to turn back. This gentleman wanted to go on and finish something he started. The same driving force most of us have to accomplish feats we set our hearts on. Desire is a powerful emotion. Condolences to Sudheer's family, his hiking partners and those who will miss him.
|
|
|
|
|
dingus
Sep 9, 2004, 9:30 PM
Post #117 of 124
(16932 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Dec 16, 2002
Posts: 17398
|
In reply to: I've often wondered what I would do if I had a friend that wanted to push on when I thought I wanted to turn back. Good policy, to think that out in advance! Once Burl, Angus and I got into a heated argument about this. Not so much about continuing in our case as it was a bad sense of direction on the part of, um, Burl. We argued heatedly for 20 minutes. We're all grown ups and experienced climbers. Burl finally agreed to follow us. But we weren't going to knock him down and make him come. If he had insisted we would have parted ways. In a white out. That incident led me to think hard about this sort of situation and the personalities of my main climbing partners. What I decided: I was not and will not let a partner talk me or bully me into a situation where my instincts scream for caution. But I am also not going to take charge of my climbing mates either. Tis their decision. Much harder when you're committed to a partner during a technical climb. Abandoning your partner could mean death for one or both, depending upon circumstance. Great reading on this... the Rowell/Harding rescue on Half Dome. Rowell tried to abandon Harding to his madness and nearly died as a result. Careful WHICH madmen you rope yourselves to, that's the word! DMT
|
|
|
|
|
gds
Sep 9, 2004, 9:36 PM
Post #118 of 124
(16932 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Mar 8, 2004
Posts: 710
|
In reply to: As we were racking up for a day at the Twin Owls Sunday . Not to hijack the thread but I'm just curious about what your were racking up for at Twin Owls. I've hiked it to the top and never ran into any technical climbing. Are there crags off the trail?
|
|
|
|
|
mbg
Sep 9, 2004, 9:41 PM
Post #119 of 124
(16932 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Apr 17, 2003
Posts: 372
|
In reply to: In reply to: As we were racking up for a day at the Twin Owls Sunday . Not to hijack the thread but I'm just curious about what your were racking up for at Twin Owls. I've hiked it to the top and never ran into any technical climbing. Are there crags off the trail? It sounds like you're thinking about the Twin Sisters. You must be one hell of a hiker if you made it up the Owls whithout encountering technical moves. :wink: There is off-trail climbing at the Sisters BTW. Back on thread... Be careful of Summit Feaver. Anyone who's climbed peaks has felt it and has probably given into it when they shouldn't have. Be careful out there.
|
|
|
|
|
gds
Sep 9, 2004, 10:11 PM
Post #120 of 124
(16932 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Mar 8, 2004
Posts: 710
|
In reply to: [It sounds like you're thinking about the Twin Sisters. You must be one hell of a hiker if you made it up the Owls whithout encountering technical moves. :wink: . Indeed Twin Sisters it was. My bad, thanks :oops:
|
|
|
|
|
tgreene
Sep 9, 2004, 10:42 PM
Post #121 of 124
(16932 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Oct 22, 2003
Posts: 7267
|
The rule of thumb when in groups, is generally and always should be, that if any member of the team drops out for valid reasons, then everyone else should respect that and drop as well... Machismo has no place in the wilderness!
|
|
|
|
|
mdude
Sep 10, 2004, 6:15 PM
Post #122 of 124
(16932 views)
Shortcut
Registered: May 9, 2003
Posts: 198
|
I heard that the Rangers gave out ticket to people that went to the summit on the day that it was closed. I read that the peak was closed and that there were signs at the trailhead. MD
|
|
|
|
|
stb2334
Sep 10, 2004, 8:06 PM
Post #123 of 124
(16931 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Sep 10, 2004
Posts: 1
|
I just want to say that noone had any business on that monutian on those days with anything less than a Jacket, Gloves, Warm Boots. Me and my frien were there from Texas and started up Longs Sunday morning at 2:15a.m. We started in the snow and at 9400 feet it was cold. The wind was as bad as it has been while I have been climbing the 14ers. At 11,000 feet we had to turn back. It was just too bad. I can only believe that Saturday was just as bad. We landed that morning and it was raining. We did not see Longs summit until Monday(Labor Day). To all who want to summit any mountain, be smart.
|
|
|
|
|
jc5462
Sep 12, 2004, 3:23 AM
Post #124 of 124
(16931 views)
Shortcut
Registered: May 25, 2004
Posts: 64
|
However, Do Not forget it gets cold in the desert at night and we do get winter and snow also. Many also are unaware of the monsoon season down here and getting drenched can create problems here too. I have enjoyed the outdoors all over this country and each environment is different and has it's own risks. I have seen Hypothermia in Florida in the summer, experienced frostbite in the Southwest desert mountains in August and more important had my own epic on the East Face of Long's the last week of July about 10 years ago and was caught in an unpredicted blizzard and did a forced Bivy above 14,000. Bottom line you need to be as prepared as possible when heading outside, but remember "Shit Happens" to even the best.
|
|
|
|
|
|