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ctardi
May 26, 2005, 2:11 AM
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There is also the fact to support a sharp edge that is just because a draw is rated to 22kn, does not mean it will break at 22kn, it will usually break higher, which i doubt would have happened from what i can peice together of what happened. Must have been a sharp edge, usually a break from stress elongates the fibers and deformes the weaving.
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avalon420
May 27, 2005, 10:57 PM
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I still say that the cut appears WAY to clean to be from rock (other than obsidian or flint ) but i font call bull sh!t untill i see pics.
Per haps your wife was trying to Collect on some life insurance ? "HE'll never notice if i cut it a little bit on the inside, Mwahaha!" :wink:
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slacklinejoe
May 29, 2005, 1:38 AM
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Holy bad bolt placement Batman!!!
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vegastradguy
May 29, 2005, 1:57 AM
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wow. if i came upon that as the first bolt on a route, i'd down climb and go climb something else.
that bolt is in almost the worst possible place! someone needs to remedy this asap.
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climboard
May 29, 2005, 2:51 AM
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*Note to self- do not clip bolts in Michigan...
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rocksonthebrain
May 29, 2005, 1:05 PM
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What a bad bolt placement.
I'm planning to start bolting routes this summer (yes there are experienced bolters I'm learning from) and I've been following this thread hoping to learn something. I was expecting somthing subtle that might need a little thinking to see the problem.
This one is dead obvious. Shouldent bolts be placed so that the draw hangs freely.
It might be time to start a thread on bolt placements and how to safely bolt a sport route.
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timstich
May 29, 2005, 2:55 PM
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It is a bad placement. You shouldn't have draws hanging over edges like that for reasons that are now all too obvious.
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dingus
May 29, 2005, 3:39 PM
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In reply to: It might be time to start a thread on bolt placements and how to safely bolt a sport route.
No I don't think so.
DMT
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avalon420
May 30, 2005, 3:05 AM
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:shock: The phrase "1st degree attempted homocide" comes to mind. That bolter should be beaten and banished
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10ftdrp
May 30, 2005, 3:30 AM
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ya that definitely needs to be moved
avalon420 Posted:
In reply to: The phrase "1st degree attempted homocide" comes to mind. That bolter should be beaten and banished
agreed
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steezy
May 30, 2005, 11:51 PM
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Thanks for posting that and sharing with us. What is the name/grade of the route and who bolted it? I think you should remove the hanger, and chop the bolt. Its great you didn't get hurt more. I will watch out for this kind of piss poor bolting from now on.
Cheers!
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runnit
May 31, 2005, 2:15 AM
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In reply to: What a bad bolt placement. It might be time to start a thread on bolt placements and how to safely bolt a sport route.
I reckon that's just asking for a random to pick up a drill and go nuts without any real idea, if someone jumped on here and asked 'how do i lead climb' they'd be told to nick off and do a course or learn from an old hand
keeping a thread for incidents like this would be good but so everyone can learn from past/existing mistakes
just another thought, would it be less damaging/visually offensive to move the bolt or to just bash off the edge below the bolt? :?:
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janjaf
May 31, 2005, 8:17 AM
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I've been convinced all the way that this was a legitimate accident, and not ehrm... whatever it is alpineclimbr1 is hinting at.
But, I believe that there several things to be learned from this accident, and the two photos posted:
First, this should make everybody remember not to trust bolts but check, think and consider alternatives, just like you would when trad climbing.
Second, perhaps it might cause us users on rc.com to sober up. No, this hasn't happened that many times before. Yes, the OP wasn't too clear in his first description. No he didn't post a photo of the edge right away. But the episode, now that all the info is there, is convincing sobering, and important. Next time someone posts a unlikely-sounding story, perhaps we should all be a bit hesitant to disbelieve it, even if it seems unreasonable. Knowledge can't hurt you.
And glad that you're safe, J.
*/Jan
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reno
May 31, 2005, 9:52 AM
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In reply to: you are crushing, forcing and putting tension the soft material in tight loop. do this ,get a knife and bend pc of webbing and apply force then try the same thing on a pc of webbing on a stright line both under tension.
Your grasp of the physics is incorrect.
You should do some serious, pointed, and focused research on the physical properties of fabrics, threads, etc., and then come back to discuss them.
Fibers are strongest when pulled in the length-wise direction. Holds true for most every fiber ever known: Spiderweb silk, 9.8 dynamic kernmantle rope, or steel cable. All are stronger when the force of the pull is in the same direction as the long fiber. A knot weakens the fiber, mostly because of the sharp bending of the fibers when tying a knot. (There is a little bit more to it than that, but you didn't expect me to do your homework for you, did ya?)
So, Majid.... go do some research. Then come back.
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treez
Jun 1, 2005, 3:17 AM
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The pictures make this even more unbelievable, but true I guess. I've seen a situation like that with a fixed chain draw, but there was no other option. I can see a better spot in those pics!
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dingus
Jun 1, 2005, 3:47 AM
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In reply to: I've been convinced all the way that this was a legitimate accident, and not ehrm... whatever it is alpineclimbr1 is hinting at.
I've been anxiously waiting for a while now to see what alpnclmbr1 had to say after seeing these photos.
DMT
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alpnclmbr1
Jun 1, 2005, 5:30 AM
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I still don't buy it.
Reasons why:
I have seen worse scenarios on quartzite where you would think that the draw would have to be cut. It wasn't.
When you are out to the side in a pendulum fall. The most force that it is possible to apply to the top piece of pro is bodyweight. Any additional force is applied once you are in the fall line.
The loop on a black diamond draw extends about a half inch from the biner. (it is not a large loop) The edge is to far away for the loop to hit it. (pic 1 of the series proves it) (and see the original post pic)
The description of a free fall to the ground.
Lack of any mention of plowing into the belayer.
Helmet comment.
Falling on the first bolt on his second day on the route.
The op climbed the route a year(?) ago and posted a picture of him climbing an adjacent route. Coincidences abound.
Something like this is about as likely as winning a 40 state lottery, All the other times that draws have broken have been with worn out project draws. Anyone care to provide a link to scenario where a good draw was cut in a fall? (Adds to my confidence level.)
chuckle
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viciado
Jun 1, 2005, 9:54 AM
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Is it just me or does alpnclmbr1 have a huge tendency to discredit every accident report he/she reads?
Anyway, on this thread I am even willing to concede the point that the circumstances seems improbable, but that's exactly why we call it... hmmm... AN ACCIDENT!
Whether or not we choose to believe the OP, the pictures of the placement speak volumes. This is clearly a bad placement that has the potential to result in equipment failure. Does someone actually have to have an accident for this to be fixed? The local community certainly has the right to decide whether to move the bolt or alter the rock, I would hope they feel a sense of responsibility to do something (assuming that this a sport ethic crag.) even if this is a singular circumstance.
Just my .02
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unabonger
Jun 1, 2005, 4:47 PM
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In reply to: I still don't buy it. Reasons why: I have seen worse scenarios on quartzite where you would think that the draw would have to be cut. It wasn't.
Imagining scenarios outside your realm of experience is useful in avoiding accidents. It is shortsighted to eliminate possible outcomes based on your observations, particularly when presented with such plausible contrary evidence.
Good luck, you'll need it.
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dingus
Jun 1, 2005, 4:56 PM
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Plausible or not, that bolt placement needs some attention. Thanks for your comments alpnclmbr1. A voice of doubt is a good thing in a case like this I suspect, even if the condescending tone makes it so hard to accept at face value.
Cheers and thanks for posting your opinion
DMT
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boadman
Jun 1, 2005, 5:18 PM
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Reasons why your reasons are shite:
1. The spur that cut the sling in the incident that happened at rifle that I described earlier in the thread was smaller, and duller, but located in the same place.
2. Body weight is more than enough force to cut a sling on a sharp edge, pull a sling tight (with just your hands) and hit it with a knife, see what happens. If the belayer sat back on the rope because of how close the climber was to the ground, the forces could be greater than body weight.
3. If the draw was being cut as the OP swung to the left, when he fully loaded it, whatever nylon was left unsevered would have snapped instantly. There would have been a tiny pause, but likely not very noticable to a panicing climber.
4. He stated that the belayer was standing back from the cliff, making it difficult for them to plow into eachother.
In reply to: I still don't buy it. Reasons why: I have seen worse scenarios on quartzite where you would think that the draw would have to be cut. It wasn't. When you are out to the side in a pendulum fall. The most force that it is possible to apply to the top piece of pro is bodyweight. Any additional force is applied once you are in the fall line. The loop on a black diamond draw extends about a half inch from the biner. (it is not a large loop) The edge is to far away for the loop to hit it. (pic 1 of the series proves it) (and see the original post pic) The description of a free fall to the ground. Lack of any mention of plowing into the belayer. Helmet comment. Falling on the first bolt on his second day on the route. The op climbed the route a year(?) ago and posted a picture of him climbing an adjacent route. Coincidences abound. Something like this is about as likely as winning a 40 state lottery, All the other times that draws have broken have been with worn out project draws. Anyone care to provide a link to scenario where a good draw was cut in a fall? (Adds to my confidence level.) chuckle |
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bdeaug
Jun 3, 2005, 11:52 AM
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HFS, I don't post much on these sites, but my partner jbell told me about some of the disbelief. As the belayer during said decking, here's my eye witness account. The climb in question is called Carboboy, and it's located in Big Bay, MI, north of Marquette, MI. Jbell has climbed it more than a few times. I belayed him with little to no trepidation, he's a strong climber, and a very honest guy by the way, and we have more than a few climbs under our belts together. I trust him with my life on a weekly basis. I was back from the base at least a body length and a half, probably more. He landed about two big steps from my feet. The first bolt is more than ten feet off the deck in my opinion. I think jbell is being conservative in his account actually. His head was even with the second bolt which is about eight or so feet from bolt number one. So I'm guessing about twenty feet from his head to the ground, which is how I usually rate a fall. (By the way, I don't GAS how anyone else measures one, so save it.) He fell on a part he usually flashes with no problem. I felt a nanosecond of weight on the rope, then heard a popping sound as I watched him land as if he were sitting sideways on a couch with his legs stretched out and his back against the armrest. There is a coffee table-sized, amazingly flat rock, that sticks up about six inches above the ground that he landed with his back against. It left a sizable cut, and an even worse bruise across his lower back. The first thing I immediately thought was that I had screwed up the belay. I ran over still holding the rope as he jumped up in shock and immediately removed his harness. Once we calmed down, and I realized all was well with the belay, he said, "look at this." The draw was still attached to the rope by the rope biner, while the bolt biner was still attached to the bolt. I have used his gear before, with zero problems. The fin of rock, as the pictures clearly show, sliced that draw when it was weighted resulting in the accident. It dragged right to left as he fell. Many of us from this area have climbed this climb many times. None of us had ever noticed the potential problem before. The crux is above the third bolt for most leaders which gets all of the attention. We have had a lot of disagreement over bolting and ethics going back a decade at least. We are still hashing it out. As far as I know, no one would take hammer to rock, or drill to rock at this time without consulting the greater community. Existing bolts have been questioned, but right now, the consensus is leave the rock alone while being careful and following rule #1. (See Alpinist 11 for an update of what rule #1 is.) It was frightening, but everything turned out ok. It's something I never want to experience or see again. As for the helmet thing, I'm the one who said I am going to consider wearing a helmet. I always wear one on mountain routes, and when ice climbing, but have never worn one rock cragging. I'm contemplating changing my philosophy. I don't GAS what anyone else does. As for this post hack away at it, I'm not sure I'll be back.
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dirtineye
Jun 3, 2005, 9:00 PM
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In reply to: I still don't buy it. Reasons why: I have seen worse scenarios on quartzite where you would think that the draw would have to be cut. It wasn't. When you are out to the side in a pendulum fall. The most force that it is possible to apply to the top piece of pro is bodyweight. Any additional force is applied once you are in the fall line.
To put it politely, you do not understand pendulum motion.
In reply to: The loop on a black diamond draw extends about a half inch from the biner. (it is not a large loop) The edge is to far away for the loop to hit it. (pic 1 of the series proves it) (and see the original post pic)
Maybe, maybe not. The edge seems to have an incut, where the draw could have been caught closer to the biner that the pose in the picture indicates.
To the original poster, at least until you guys figure out what to do, a few pieces of duct tape over the edge would blunt the cutting effect. It would be ugly but non-permanent.
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