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tim
Apr 15, 2004, 6:00 PM
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In reply to: ...if any individual has multiple parties concerned about their health because of a very low weight, please take those concerns to heart. It's only because people care about you.
Likewise, if a shit load of your partners and friends are suggesting that you get serious about safety and self sufficiency before you get a wake up call like Amber's, that too would be good advice to listen to. Especially when you are close friends with guys who run SAR operations.
Most people don't listen until it's too late. Josh made a balanced appraisal of Amber's readiness for the wall and I should have listened to him -- if she had been in better condition, with a bit more experience to fall back on, it would have been more enjoyable for her and for me. If the shit ever hits the fan on one of your adventures, you will be happy to have spent a day or even an afternoon with Robert or someone, just reviewing basic self-rescue. One of these days it seems to happen to everyone -- either a partner gets injured, or another party gets in over their head, or someone drops their jug/atc/whatever. You have the resources to take care of this before it becomes an issue; use them.
Your weakness is not physical condition, obviously; but you could benefit from some mental conditioning, and your friends can make that happen if you just say the word.
Just trying to keep you from having a similar experience to Amber's.
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mreardon
Apr 15, 2004, 6:02 PM
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I'm a dad. I'm a husband. I'm a brother. I'm an arrogant ass. I'm a workaholic. I'm a lazy bum. I'm an overachiever. I'm rich. I'm poor. I'm a beginner. I'm an expert. I'm smart. I'm stupid. I'm all of these things because I climb.
You learn from your mistakes. You inform others so they don't make them. They will. They already have. You're always judged. You're always judging. F--k 'em if they don't get it. You do.
Congrats on making it through another day, because 100 years from now no one will care so live for the moment. It's not adrenaline, it's life. Choose and enjoy.
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calamity_chk
Apr 15, 2004, 6:08 PM
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mike.
out of curiosity, did meredith brooks inspire that post.
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lifesshort
Apr 15, 2004, 6:11 PM
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Thank you mreardon, I think you summed up all I was trying to say with out all the anecdotes and blah, blah, blah...
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justsendingits
Apr 15, 2004, 6:46 PM
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lifesshort wrote----"I am good friends with justsendingit and have watched his climbing career from the start. He is single, care free, adrenaline junkie and takes big risks"
I never did care for the term, "adrenaline junkie"
Adrenaline is the last thing I want unless I am laying in a ditch next to my motorcycle with my femur sticking out of my thigh.
I like to transcend risk, and to do that one of the things you need is poise.
Here is a quote from Arno's book---- "The fight or flight response is accompanied by surges of adrenaline, which lead to excessive force and quick consumption of energy. These are not characteristics of efficient climbing"
Another by Arno--- "Security should be our base camp, however, not the field in which we play out the adventure of our lives."
1 more--- "It is ironic that we are least likely to demonstrate poise in the situations that demand it the most"
I can't stop--- "Once you learn to consciously separate achievement from self worth, you become free of the self- limiting need to establish external proof of self worth"
'Beauty, friendship---these are ever-present in climbing. Our experience is improved by taking the time to appreciate them, and to remember that whatever happens, we are involved in these things we value"
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unabonger
Apr 15, 2004, 7:13 PM
Post #106 of 140
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In reply to: In reply to: I think more people should Prusik their rappels. This is a perfect example of why the knot is invaluable. Use an autoblock, it is less likely to get twisted. Seriously. I've tried prusiks, klemheists (I can tie a klemheist in my sleep, with frozen fingers, and ascend on them for that matter), and autoblocks, and the autoblock is faster and more foolproof than the others IMHO.
None of those methods keep you from rappelling off the end of the rope, though. They may reduce the chances in that you are more involved in managing the rope, but if you hit the end of the rope you can slide those backups right off it.
The BachmannBonger
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micronut
Apr 15, 2004, 7:20 PM
Post #107 of 140
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In reply to: questioning someone's judgement and trying to reel them in when they are doing something stupid is not the same as telling them they are a bad person, which amber most certainly is not. if amber had paid attention to those of us who were "judging" her climbing ability, she wouldn't have nearly died the other day.
In reply to: I don't judge Amber a bit. I also don't judge the folks who told her in advance that she wasn't ready. You need friends who know you to give you perspective when you're not fully experienced.
I've maintained for a while now that the worst thing we can do for our friends in general is to let the slide, skate, flake, whatever. My best friends are the ones the ask the serious, pertinet questions that need to be asked that maybe I don't nessesarily want to hear. And the consequences of error are so dire in climbing that we, as friends, need to speak up.
And I feel a need to quicly distinguish between using judgment and passing judgement. Using judgment is absolutely essential in every aspect in life. Passing ultimate judgment as to Amber's, or any other soul's, ultimate worth in the cosmic plan is a serious trangression against truth.
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lifesshort
Apr 15, 2004, 7:29 PM
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I will rephrase my anecdote about Rich(justsendingit) in more favorable terms as I did not mean to dis on him by using him as an example. When I met him, I was a nOOb, 1-1.5 yrs climbing but had learned anchors and ropework fairly well. He didnt think of himself as a climber but climbed on things alot without any protection. When I took him climbing for real, with ropes and all, he climbed alot harder things than he had ever climbed, and fell, and learned how easy it is to fall even on things you think are easy. I think this freaked him out a little and since he has tried his best to learn and use tricks and intelligence to make his experience safer. He does however like to push the envelope of his abilities and gains great joy from this. Call it adrenaline, call it living, whatever you will, its us making personal choices that balance safety, responsibility, and intelligence with doing what you feel you must to make life worth living.
The Edge...
there is no honest way to explain it because
the only people who really know where it is
are the ones who have gone over.
Hunter s. Thompson
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bishopclimber
Apr 15, 2004, 7:32 PM
Post #109 of 140
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In reply to: Well I do judge Amber for her lack of judgement and overstating her skills.
I don't like to judge others, but there are a huge number of people on this site that overstate their skills.
it's good to see input from rational people like, Bob D, Karl B, Brutus, Vivialargo, Curt, Dingus, etc.
it's obvious that experienced climbers are far outnumbered by the inexperienced ones on this site.
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lifesshort
Apr 15, 2004, 7:46 PM
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In reply to: 'Beauty, friendship---these are ever-present in climbing. Our experience is improved by taking the time to appreciate them, and to remember that whatever happens, we are involved in these things we value"
One of the cooler moments in my life was being awoke at midnight from a great sleep by the full moon, rolling over to the edge of the portaledge I was sharing with Rich on Tangerine trip, and seeing the whole valley below, lit by that moon. Watching for a few minutes as it set behind the nose, rolling over and falling back to sleep.
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tim
Apr 15, 2004, 7:54 PM
Post #111 of 140
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In reply to: In reply to: In reply to: I think more people should Prusik their rappels. This is a perfect example of why the knot is invaluable. Use an autoblock, it is less likely to get twisted. Seriously. I've tried prusiks, klemheists (I can tie a klemheist in my sleep, with frozen fingers, and ascend on them for that matter), and autoblocks, and the autoblock is faster and more foolproof than the others IMHO. None of those methods keep you from rappelling off the end of the rope, though. They may reduce the chances in that you are more involved in managing the rope, but if you hit the end of the rope you can slide those backups right off it.
Very true. If I am not 100% sure that my rope(s) will reach, I religiously put barrel knots in the end. Suggest this to anyone who will listen ;-)
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tim
Apr 15, 2004, 8:01 PM
Post #112 of 140
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In reply to: it's good to see input from rational people like, Bob D, Karl B, Brutus, Vivialargo, Curt, Dingus, etc.
Thank god someone periodically points this out. "Oooh but when Joe or Jay or Curt corrects my horrifically dangerous suggestions, sometimes they're not nice!" Neither are closed-casket services, huh?
I wonder if there's some elegant way to make it easier for newcomers to understand who's been doing this for decades and who's been doing it for months. Right now we rely on common sense and as the old saw goes, it does not seem to be very common.
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caughtinside
Apr 15, 2004, 8:10 PM
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What? I thought we were supposed to listen to the people with the highest postcounts and call everyone else a n00b! :lol:
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granitegod
Apr 15, 2004, 9:05 PM
Post #114 of 140
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I can't judge Amber, or I would be a BIG hypocrite. We can ALL learn from her mistake, which is why I think she told her story in the first place.
When I was a relative newby, I led a pitch on the Spearhead....got about 50 ft above the belay and noticed "hmm, I'm clipping the trail rope through the gear....oops". Ok, stupid mistake, made by a beginner, who had no business leading on that climb, or maybe even following. But my supposedly more experienced partner didn't notice either. Then we got benighted half a pitch from the top, and surely would have died had it rained.
Was it ambition that made me do it? Nah....it just sounded like a really cool climb! (it was). Dumb mistake(s). Got lucky. Lacking partners (pre-internet days), I started leading routes near my limit before I should have. However, being new, I was chicken, placed lots of gear and DIDN'T FALL. Coulda. Didn't. Lucky.
Several years later, a new roommate and I started climbing together in Utah. Although relatively inexperienced, Noah was sick strong....and very gung ho. He wanted to do El Cap. I said "yeah, cool dude, but maybe we should do some shorter stuff before we hit the Big Kahuna". Two weeks later, Noah died when the fixed piton he was rapelling off (just after sunset, as it started to rain, 50 feet up).
Was it ambition that killed Noah? Nope. Poor judgement.
Last year, with 12 years experience under my belt, I finished the first pitch of a 4 pitch route, looked down at my harness and noticed my knot wasn't tied right. It looked similar to a figure 8, but it wasn't....glad I didn't fall. Just was in a hurry to get going at the start...rushed my preflight checklist. Harness check? Knot check?
Learn from others' mistakes. BE VIGILANT. Because when you make a mistake, you might be Noah, not Amber.
Amber, I'm glad you're ok! I'll tie in with ya.
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coylec
Apr 15, 2004, 10:40 PM
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Having read this thread, as well others on this site and ST, I'm still at a major loss of what to write ...
Playing the blame game is easy, especially for those (like myself) who have never been in that situation. What's the purpose of these discussions: are we, as community, trying to place blame for a mistake or are we trying to ascertain the circumstances that led an accident?
Accident: An unexpected and undesirable event.
Mistake: An error or fault resulting from defective judgment, deficient knowledge, or carelessness.
coylec
ETF: Links
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climbsomething
Apr 15, 2004, 11:15 PM
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Man :oops:
I wasn't accusing Amber of being anorexic either. Not at all. I mean... have people seen ME?
Apologies. :(
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calamity_chk
Apr 15, 2004, 11:21 PM
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i cant speak for the agenda of this thread or for other people's posts, but my motivation has been a combination of the two.
In reply to: Accident: An unexpected and undesirable event. Mistake: An error or fault resulting from defective judgment, deficient knowledge, or carelessness.
i have laid the mistakes that led to my accident on the table for people to sift through in hopes of bringing to light people's own awareness of themselves, their general competence at truly and accurately gauging their own ability, their relative risk/safety balance as well as the way that they choose partners, pursue goals, etc.
it's a lofty goal, for sure - but i'm an idealist.
regardless, the lessons themselves, imho, are subjective - people will learn different things based on their relative place in life, climbing experience, and so forth.
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very
Apr 15, 2004, 11:49 PM
Post #118 of 140
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dude, I dont know what all the hub bub is about.
The only reason "us" relatively experienced folk get to criticize, chastise, and berrate the noobs is because we haven't gotten killed yet or quit the sport.
The only way you get to be an old climber is to be the bomb(man, I like swearing, Supertopo rules!), otherwise, your're dead.
Thats why most old climbers dont suck. The rest died along time ago.
I dont think anyone can be taught the skills it takes to be a damn good climbing partner. I'm not talking about how hard some one pulls down, but how much you would want them on the other end of the rope when something bad happens.
Some people were meant to climb. Some weren't. The ones that stick with it either die or get good really fast.
well, I guess you could tr and sport climb forever, but is that really climbing?
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moabbeth
Apr 16, 2004, 12:11 AM
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In reply to: Man :oops: I wasn't accusing Amber of being anorexic either. Not at all. I mean... have people seen ME? Apologies. :(
I wasn't either and did not mean to imply anything and apologize if it was taken in a negative way. I am in no position to tell anyone how to live their life or anything else. That is all.
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lambone
Apr 16, 2004, 4:33 AM
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In reply to: One of the cooler moments in my life was being awoke at midnight from a great sleep by the full moon, rolling over to the edge of the portaledge I was sharing with Rich on Tangerine trip, and seeing the whole valley below, lit by that moon. Watching for a few minutes as it set behind the nose, rolling over and falling back to sleep.
WERD :wink:
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calamity_chk
Apr 16, 2004, 4:48 AM
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In reply to: In reply to: One of the cooler moments in my life was being awoke at midnight from a great sleep by the full moon, rolling over to the edge of the portaledge I was sharing with Rich on Tangerine trip, and seeing the whole valley below, lit by that moon. Watching for a few minutes as it set behind the nose, rolling over and falling back to sleep. WERD :wink:
yeah, one of my more favorite moments in climbing was leading a bolted route in jtree as the sun was setting. after each clip, there was a noticeable difference in the sun's position and pastels began to streak across the sky. i watched the sky colors change and give way as the sun slipped under the horizon while i belayed my partner up to me, and then we sat at the top of the rock and talked about life as the sky put on its evening cloak and the last bits of light crept into the night. it will likely forever remain a favorite memory, climbing or otherwise.
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maculated
Apr 16, 2004, 5:05 AM
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In reply to: What? I thought we were supposed to listen to the people with the highest postcounts and call everyone else a n00b! :lol:
Wait, you mean I'm not an expert at everything because I've hit 2500 posts??
Wait, what's that?
I just need to get a life??? Oh. Damn.
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atg200
Apr 16, 2004, 5:38 AM
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maculated steps in here to erase all unhappy messages.
Life is good! This is fuN!
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maculated
Apr 16, 2004, 6:00 AM
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Last time I say it. If I see anymore non-contructive posts about Amber's choices, eating habits, or personal attacks of any kind, I'm locking this thread. I & A is supposed to be educational. Not a flame war.
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justsendingits
Apr 16, 2004, 9:15 AM
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I think Amber's red chalk bag clashes with her purple Mythos. I hope that was constructive enough!!
I may be a hypocrite, cause some say my green chalk bag clashes with my Mythos.
I also might be a hypocrite for the advice I gave a team of two on MB in early January.
I fixed to one on MB late in the afternoon on like 1-2-04? Anyway, the leader was coming up pretty fast, and I thought, well, maybe we should let them start first tomorrow?
So the leader get's to the belay and as we wait for the 2nd to reach clean the pitch, I ask him for the latest weather report he had heard, and he told me they had not checked the weather. hmmmm....
I checked with the ranger that day and there was a snowstorm forecast for 1-4 and 1-5 (It ended up snowing like 4 or 5 more inches on top of the 5 inches that were already there)
So I casually mention the storm forecast to him and he's like, really?
A little later he tells me that this is their first big wall(I don't know if MB is considered a BW) Then they tell me that they have no portaledge and all they have is a duct taped lawn chair and a rain fly for their tent!! (I swear I am not making this up)
I just kind of laughed at first, but then I advised them that it could go REAL bad on a wall in the winter without the right gear.
They didn't say much.
I wanted to rap as I had been there awhile and it was getting dark, but then one of them ask's me if they can go first cause neither one of them had a headlamp and by now the sun had set.
I thought about giving them the business, like Eddie Haskell used to give the Beav.
But I said nothing as I thought about how hypocritical it would be for me to do that as I had just lead the first pitch,( with 5 inches of snow all over everything) in my tennis shoes. (Reckless?)
Which might be the reason the leader seemed like he was moving fast, I think he had Mythos with a matching chalkbag.
You don't need to monitor the RC.com Injury and Accident forum to read about climbers getting in over their heads, just go out to the meadow in the big ditch and watch them bail everyday! Or the falls parking lot under LT, or you can watch them with binoc's on WC. From Curry P lot.
I care if they get hurt or die, and it is hypocritical for me to advise them considering the way I ride motorcycles and climb sometimes, however that does not stop me. Sometimes I DO give them the business, sometimes I don't.
Sometimes I feel like a nut, sometimes I don't..
I have never given anyone a hard time after his or her brush with death, only before it! However I might get pretty agro if it put another party at risk, or a SAR member got the chop on the rescue.
Maybe someday I will post the TR of our failed attempt on the first winter ascent of Mt. Hooker in the Wind River's, talk about stupid!!!!! A 65 lb. generator(not for bolting!!) and LSD were involved!!
On another note, how come ppl. Post ascents in their profile that they have not lead and only followed??
I don’t fully understand. But then again it is late, and I am stoned sooo…..
,
Wear your seatbelt and don’t breathe secondhand smoke!!!
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