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djoseph
Sep 22, 2005, 5:04 AM
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In reply to: In reply to: Oh, and one more thing to add, the figure 8 device is no longer a part of my rack, nor will it be in the future, unless I become heavily involved with mountain rescue... There are plenty of other much safer devices out there that meet my needs. bighaz, thank you for openly and honestly bringing this to everybody's attention. You may have saved somebodies life by doing so, perhaps several lives.
To second Bill's comments: this thread was the first time I had heard of the potential of a figure-8 to lever open a locker's gate. I had only climbed for a few months at the time, and immediately explained the issue to other climbers (and some sport rappellers), none of whom had heard of the issue before.
So again, thanks.
Dan
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djoseph
Sep 22, 2005, 5:13 AM
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In reply to: I personally think he did not check his system, he rushed to rappel like a star in some kind of movie.
Majid: I often find your comments either cryptic or simply misplaced. In this case, I think some circumspection would be in order. The OP's cousin died in an accident. I suspect that the OP does not enjoy speculation about his cousin acting like a "star in some kind of movie." How does that contribute anything to this discussion?
I must admit that this post of mine is as much a reaction to some of your past comments as this current one. Perhaps I should simply keep my comments to myself. However, for the volume of reports that you post on the Injuries and Accidents forum, I would appreciate a concomitant amount of respect and tact.
Dan
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sardude
Sep 22, 2005, 6:00 AM
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Amen, I am very sorry your cousin lost his life BUT he did something he was obviously not well trained to do. An "Aussie style" is a tricky manuver for a set-up, the Marine corp requires a partner to feed out line on the inital release and an Auto-brake be implemented. Also when gear is used correctly it is much more likely not to fail. So I would like to thank your family for increasing the cost of my next gear purchase.....
I remember the days when sex was safe and climbing wasn't.... A Wise man
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anson
Sep 25, 2005, 8:46 PM
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In reply to: Majid: I often find your comments either cryptic or simply misplaced.
Correct use of multiple SAT words: check. Great tone: check. Solid message: check. Gold trophy...check!
Please allow me to second djoseph's message, and add my own: directly contradicting assertions made by those who are in a position to know--especially when you in fact know nothing directly relevant to the matter being discussed--is unlikely to make others believe that you are adding anything of value to the topic being discussed. It seems clear to me that you damage your reputation with posts like this.
-aB
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paulc
Sep 26, 2005, 5:20 PM
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In reply to: Amen, I am very sorry your cousin lost his life BUT .... So I would like to thank your family for increasing the cost of my next gear purchase.....
And I would like to thank you for being an asshat. Someone lost their life and all you give a flying f**k about is the cost of your next gear purchase. Get a life.
We pay for other people's errors in all sorts of ways, like your car insurance say. You may have a perfectly safe driving record, but the cost of your insurance reflects the cost to insure the average (and below average) driver. You might bitch about that too, but not only are you covering other drivers, but the manufacturers as well even though you are paying for lawsuits against the manufacturer in the cost of your car. Really you pay twice in this case, but for climbing gear you don't as insurance is not mandatory. Get used to it and get a sensitivity bone.
Paul
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vivalargo
Sep 26, 2005, 8:08 PM
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That poor kid should never have been allowed to try a tricky and non-mainstream kind of descent such as the Aussie Rap. It was the job of his guides or instructors to know what the gear was designed to do and not do. Holding gear manufacturers responsible for this accident is to shift the blame away from those who should have know better--but didn't. You'll never get gear to be completely "safe." As I've said a 1,000 times, safely is largely in the hands of those who use the gear, not in the gear itself. It's really too bad a young man lost his life to prove this point.
JL
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ambler
Sep 26, 2005, 8:37 PM
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In reply to: That poor kid should never have been allowed to try a tricky and non-mainstream kind of descent such as the Aussie Rap. It was the job of his guides or instructors to know what the gear was designed to do and not do.
In reply to: Holding gear manufacturers responsible for this accident is to shift the blame away from those who should have know better--but didn't. |
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vivalargo
Sep 26, 2005, 10:35 PM
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In reply to: In reply to: That poor kid should never have been allowed to try a tricky and non-mainstream kind of descent such as the Aussie Rap. It was the job of his guides or instructors to know what the gear was designed to do and not do. It seems the OP (and "key witness in the case against these enormous companies") was the kid's instructor, who taught him to do the Aussie Rap. In reply to: Holding gear manufacturers responsible for this accident is to shift the blame away from those who should have know better--but didn't.
Somehow in the twists and turns of this case I imagine the instructor got the court to believe that he set everything up perfectly but the gear betrayed him. If that's the case, what's left out here is the error in judgement in letting a novice practice a technique (the Aussi Rap) that is sketchy even for experts, and that the instructor didn't know the limits of the gear in which he rigged on the victim. The fact that the gear had limitations -- and that the instructor did not know as much -- is not the "fault" of the manufacturer.
This whole thing was avoidable not because of gear failure, but because of practicing sketchy techniques.
You've got to keep track of first causes in these cases. I'm reminded of a case I heard about when a climber fell, a nut popped and the climber got badly injured. A law suit followed, with blame attached to the gear maker. Royal Robbins was an expert witness. When the judge asked why the accident happened, Robbins pointed to the climber and said, "Because he fell."
The nut did not "cause" he fall, and unless the climber had fallen, eh wouldn't have been hurt, hence his fall was the first "cause."
In this case, the Aussie Rap was the first "cause."
JL
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timstich
Sep 26, 2005, 11:51 PM
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It would appear that this instructor needs a tolchock in the yarbles.
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healyje
Sep 27, 2005, 12:03 AM
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I totally agree with John's comments.
Rappelling, and "Aussie Style" rappelling in particular, is an inherently dangerous activity due principally to the dramatic change in the role of the rope and gear from climbing. In rappelling the rope and gear switch roles from one of a backup safety mechanism to that of a primary means of transport. In this role your life is 100% dependent on the proper manufacture, configuration, and operation of the gear and rope in question. The "Aussie Style" rap is of no particular utility in climbing and to do it for its own sake is clearly not climbing, but "sport rappelling" and a lapse in judgment from a climbing perspective. Having upfront knowledge that you won't be able to actively monitor your rappelling gear mid descent should have been a clear signal dictating that one insure the hardware configuration used could not fail in the manner described. That would mean doubled lockers with screw gates in opposition at the very least and probably the use of a non-crossloading figure-eight's (ironically HB is about the only company that sell them).
Also, given the technical content of the OP's first two posts and the timeline he laid out it seems clear that he did not possess sufficient overall climbing and technical experience at the time of the accident to be assuming the responsibilities of an instructor. And there is a solid lesson there as well, in that there is much more to climbing techniques and instructing then simply knowing all the "proper" ways to do things - experience over time and yardage over rock teaches you much about the ways that things can possibly go wrong and in what contexts various risks increase.
This is a regrettable accident and I very much feel for the OP, but to describe HB as an "enormous" company is simply a disservice. Again, this accident is one of those wholly regrettable incidents where everyone had the best intentions, were just trying to have a good time, but where a lack of knowledge and experience proves deadly. I can not find anyone particularly at fault here, not even the OP in this age where climbing is now so heavily marketed as a relatively safe form of enterainment rather than an activity, much like sky diving, that demands the utmost respect and a rigorous attention to details, risks, and context at all times.
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catbird_seat
Sep 27, 2005, 12:21 AM
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Given that the Aussie Style rappel has no practical uses in climbing, and that it is primarily a sport rappelling thrill ride, it seems to me that the logical thing for a guide to do would be to put a backup belay on the novice client using a separate rope. It would be just as thrilling for the client, and perfectly safe.
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majid_sabet
Sep 27, 2005, 5:11 AM
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Aussie Style= Combat military rappel=SWAT team rappel= Hollywood Style rappel ,etc = death for those who are not familiar with rappelling techniques and equipments.
Lets close this case and move on and if you do not like my point of view just bite me.
l :twisted:
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reno
Sep 27, 2005, 5:26 AM
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In reply to: Aussie Style= Combat military rappel=SWAT team rappel= Hollywood Style rappel ,etc = death for those who are not familiar with rappelling techniques and equipments. Lets close this case and move on and if you do not like my point of view just bite me.
I have a question:
Why do people find it so terribly difficult to discuss things rationally, without resorting to phrases like "If you don't like it, bite me."
?
Why?
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majid_sabet
Sep 27, 2005, 5:58 AM
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RENO
I changed my mind
Aussie Style= Combat military rappel=SWAT team rappel= Hollywood Style rappel ,etc = is VERY SAFE ........( R U :wink: NOW ).
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paulc
Sep 27, 2005, 6:18 AM
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In reply to: RENO I changed my mind Aussie Style= Combat military rappel=SWAT team rappel= Hollywood Style rappel ,etc = is VERY SAFE ........( R U :wink: NOW ).
I haven't and I agree with the poster that tried to give you constructive feedback. You post in mainly accidents and injuries from what I can see and you take an authoritarian point of view. People don't like being talked to in the manner you usually take in these matters. You don't like them telling you that you are acting like a loser, don't act like a loser. Otherwise you are going to get all the crap you deserve.
Paul
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majid_sabet
Sep 27, 2005, 7:23 AM
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PAUL
I got this for you
Life is too short
Peace
MJ
http://www.examiner.ie/pport/web/ireland/Full_Story/did-sg-PUw28JLAUUsglO-LCk0lQvU.asp
26/09/05
Man dies after 30ft fall onto railings
By Eoin English
A YOUNG man died in agony in a freak incident yesterday after he fell from a drainpipe and became impaled on railings.
Blood stains marked the pavement on Limerick’s Clare Street which showed the path taken by the victim after he was lifted off the metal spikes by a horrified friend.
But the man, who suffered massive internal injuries, collapsed just yards away. He died later in hospital. Gardaí, for family privacy reasons, last night withheld the victim’s name.
The 19-year-old, believed to be from Limerick city, was climbing a drainpipe attached to a five-storey Georgian flat complex on Clare Street shortly before 9am yesterday when the horrific incident happened.
His friend was watching from the road below. It is understood the victim may have known people living in the building and had used the drainpipe before to gain access to their flat.
However, he lost his grip and plummeted about 30ft onto a set of four-foot high railings that run around the front of the building.
He was impaled on the tip of a square-top railing. Gardaí declined to go into detail but it is understood the man suffered massive internal injuries to his lower body and was bleeding profusely.
His friend rushed to his aid and, after frantic efforts, managed to lift him off the railings.
They both stumbled onto St Lelia Street. Gardaí believe they were trying to get to the nearby St John’s Hospital, but the injured man collapsed just a few yards away, leaving a trail of blood in his wake.
An ambulance was on the scene within minutes. The injured man was rushed to St John’s Hospital but was pronounced dead just before 10am. His body was later removed to the morgue attached to the Mid-Western Regional Hospital. Gardaí sealed off the scene of the incident yesterday morning and said they were treating the death as suspicious until the full facts became known. An investigation led by Supt TG Mahon was launched yesterday afternoon.
“This was an absolutely horrific incident,” a garda spokesman said.
“This appears to have been a tragic accident as the man fell off the drain pipe and landed on the railings below.”
Assistant State Pathologist, Dr Margaret Bolster, carried out a post mortem on the dead man’s body yesterday.
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anson
Sep 27, 2005, 7:36 AM
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In reply to: Man dies after 30ft fall onto railings
Majid,
This is ROCK climbing dot com, not DRAINPIPE climbing dot com. Please constrain your postings to relevant news. Thanks,
-aB
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reno
Sep 27, 2005, 7:36 AM
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In reply to: PAUL I got this for you Life is too short Peace MJ http://www.examiner.ie/pport/web/ireland/Full_Story/did-sg-PUw28JLAUUsglO-LCk0lQvU.asp 26/09/05 Man dies after 30ft fall onto railings By Eoin English A YOUNG man died in agony in a freak incident yesterday after he fell from a drainpipe and became impaled on railings. . . . . . .
This has nothing to do with climbing, climbing related injury, the topic at hand, or anything else we discuss on this website, other than the occasional "Darwin Award" thread in Community. What, sir, is your point? That people die every day from accidents, foolish behavior, or risky actions? That's nothing new, really.
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cracklover
Sep 27, 2005, 12:57 PM
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Your posts here have neither wit, nor utility. They have added nothing of value to this thread. But they are disrespectful and misleading.
Consider yourself bitten.
GO
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climbinspired
Sep 27, 2005, 2:09 PM
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I'm pretty new on this site, so forgive me if I repeat what has already been said or ask questions that have already been answered...
It's my understanding that this suit arose mainly as a "failure to warn" product liability action. Basically, that BD and HB failed to warn that this type of accident could result if their products were used a certain way.
I can't determine, however, whether the plaintiff or defendant prevailed in this case, as I think the OP stated HB "won" but "paid anyway." ?????
Have you ever noticed the huge manual written in teeny tiny font that accompanies most climbing equipment? Basically, the lawyers are suing these companies to force them to add a paragraph or two (whatever is "adequate") to the manual. And if they collect a $300,000 fee while doing so, all the better!!
Would this stop some people from doing exactly what Kyle (the OP's cousin) did? Hopefully, but as other posters have pointed out -- accident's happen. If the accident is caused by a defect that they are aware of, and they didn't warn of it, you will see another suit just like this, again and again, and that manual will get bigger and bigger, with tinier font. Try to actually sit down and read it THEN!
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kailas
Sep 27, 2005, 2:42 PM
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I just heard that HB is going out of business!!! The lawsuit broke
its back!!! :evil: climbers that sue are bad!!
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majid_sabet
Sep 27, 2005, 5:13 PM
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ACCIDENT HAPPENS AND PEOPLE DIE.
keep climbing and enjoy the vertical world.
Check your gear each time
Do not trust your equipment all the time.
When your time is up , your TIME IS UP, you must leave.
SMILE AND BE HAPPY
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paulc
Sep 27, 2005, 5:53 PM
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In reply to: I just heard that HB is going out of business!!! The lawsuit broke its back!!! :evil: climbers that sue are bad!!
Troll or uninformed newbie? Hard to tell but incorrect in either case. I do not think that the lawsuit and HB going out of business are directly related, particularly in a monetary sense.
Regarding Majid, I havn't killfiled anyone here yet but am sorely tempted in this case. Oh, well. Some people aren't interested in what other people think, which is their loss, but if that is what they choose who am I to argue to the point of futility?
Thanks for the info about the drainpipe faller, perhaps he should sue the drainpipe mfg, as I don't think they would have had a warning about the dangers of mis-using a drainpipe that way. (Apologies in advance, no disrespect to the OP or that circumstance, though it may read that way)
Paul
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healyje
Sep 27, 2005, 5:55 PM
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Majid,
I don't know whether it is a language or cultural deal, but I have to agree your rather morbid focus on accidents borders on both inappropriate and tangental at best. I also agree you may want to reconsider why and what you post here.
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