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mingleefu
Mar 13, 2004, 3:04 AM
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In reply to: thats stupid. figure 8 is very unsafe as it is and because of "aussie" stylish rpaeel he couldnt control what hes device was doing. ahd how could the rope break the biner???? i you use the figure8 properly, the rope doesnt touch the biner at all. [snip]
First, your insensitivity to the situation is insulting.
But I agree with you that the Aussie style is needlessly increasing risks.
It should be pointed out, that there is a way to use the fig8 where the rope does go through the biner. Someone mentioned it prior your post, but not since. It involves using the small hole on the fig8 as you would an ATC- stick a bight of rope through the hole and clip the bight on a biner. that's the "sport mode" someone alluded to earlier.
Also, Even if you use the fig8 "properly" as you say, and put a bight through the big hole, and around the small neck, clipping the biner into the small hole- the fig8 can still break the biner and it can do so by inward force exactly like this accident.
So while "Aussie style" may be on trial in some minds, the "sport method" of using a fig8 is acceptable.
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justsendingits
Mar 13, 2004, 12:44 PM
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I use a DMM belay master locker...
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acrophobic
Mar 14, 2004, 6:27 PM
Post #53 of 179
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I'm confused though.. I'm looking at a DMM screw lock right now at the imprint reads:
<--->28 | 7
and open gate 10 kN
In fact all of my Gates show 7kN crossloading.. and they are all at least 3 years old...
where is the 1kN break point coming from? what make was it?
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cracklover
Mar 14, 2004, 10:25 PM
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In reply to: I'm confused though.. I'm looking at a DMM screw lock right now at the imprint reads: <--->28 | 7 and open gate 10 kN In fact all of my Gates show 7kN crossloading.. and they are all at least 3 years old... where is the 1kN break point coming from? what make was it?
The biner does not fail due to crossloading. In fact, technically it doesn't *fail* at all. Rather, the gate is levered open, notching the screw-locking sleeve. If you're not clear on how this happens, please read my earlier post to this thread, or PM me.
GO
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acrophobic
Mar 14, 2004, 10:28 PM
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AHHHHHHHH. i getcha..
hmmm that is a little misleading then
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curt
Mar 14, 2004, 11:35 PM
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In reply to: In reply to: There is no scenario I can think of that could have led to your cousins death, that did not involve him making a critical mistake in rigging his rappell. Now that cracklover has enlightened you, I'm sure next week you'll be excoriating someone for posting something so ignorant.
I'm not quite sure what you mean here, since cracklover's explanation does involve improper use of the equipment.
In reply to: The student had made several false starts allowing the figure-eight and karabiner to become slack on each occasion. The small eye of the descender had moved over the karabiner gate and had been corrected by the instructor at least twice. On the fatal instance this was either not noticed or not corrected fully.
What part of that didn't you understand?
Curt
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justsendingits
Mar 15, 2004, 1:17 AM
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I was talking about the plastic part that clips onto the DMM locker.It really helps keep my gri-gri,shunt,silent partner from cross loading,you should check out their belay master locker on their website.
Also there is a thread in the aid forum on a biner breaking cause of cross loading,its called" british soloist charged" I think.
I did Zodiac with Tom,solid climber!!!!
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crow
Mar 15, 2004, 2:07 AM
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Something mildly simsilar happened to a friend of mine while he was rappeling. He was using a Petzle auto-locker and the gate totallly opened while he was rapelling. He was fine, and petzel refunded the biner for him. Though, after what you wrote about your friend and my buddy, I don't think I like auto-ockers anymore. My Condolensces to your freind and family.
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roc_klimber
Mar 15, 2004, 3:17 AM
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sorry for your loss
Me and my partner rappell like that. Or "aussie style"
Thanks for the heads-up
be safe
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overlord
Mar 15, 2004, 9:28 AM
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j_ung: i forgot to write condolescences :wink:
anyway, im sorry for your loss.
and "sport" rappel with a figure8 IS unsafe. better to use it as a belay plate if you dont want to use it the way it is meant to be used.
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drkodos
Mar 15, 2004, 9:37 AM
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I will be un PC as per my usual.
What a selfish act to bring a lawsuit against a company in this instance.
Are you related to the tard that didn't know hot coffee is hot?
I have sympathy for one's loss, but using people sympathies in order to line one's pocket is rebarbative.
Prove me wrong: Donate ALL THE FECKING SETTLEMENT MONEY to a worthy cause, and not some bogus BS sociecty you create just to milk the cash for yourselves.
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drkodos
Mar 15, 2004, 9:38 AM
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And by the way, the verdict is NOT in. By settling out of court, you avoided a verdict.
Try to at least be accurate in your use of language if not in your understanding of the real world.
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hyhuu
Mar 15, 2004, 1:53 PM
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In reply to: ...I admire them for this, because now we are all gaining a better understanding of some of the dangers and risks involved with rappelling-- No matter which method you use. (Aussie or Standard/Sitting) One more thing: Kyle was no idiot. Any individual who knew him or knows me would agree that we are both as safe as we could possibly be when in the mountains. I reiterate that he was on his second descent of the cliff to make sure the lines were safe for his group of youth. Thankyou, everyone, for all of your excellent advise and information. I am suprised by some of the information that actually IS available out there. I am also incredibly relieved to be able to talk about this subject in depth like this.
While safe is a relative concept, no one I know and climb with would consider rappelling for fun and "ausie-style" rappelling to be "safe". And we already understood the dangers and the risks just fine. The lawsuit wasn't neccessary.
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montgomerywick
Mar 15, 2004, 2:19 PM
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In reply to: Since I helped teach Kyle different methods of belay and rappel, I was a key witness in the case against these enormous companies
clearly, you are quite proud of that fact. But then you said:
In reply to: As a climber myself, I would not have sued HB or REI.
you did, in effect.
Please donate your gear and move on.
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bighigaz
Mar 15, 2004, 8:08 PM
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In reply to: In reply to: Since I helped teach Kyle different methods of belay and rappel, I was a key witness in the case against these enormous companies clearly, you are quite proud of that fact. But then you said: In reply to: As a climber myself, I would not have sued HB or REI. you did, in effect. Please donate your gear and move on.
Wick-
First of all, I'm not proud of anything about this case. The defense called me, so I went.
Second, I did not, in effect, sue HB or REI. The point of my being there was 1: to establish the fact that Kyle wasn't reckless, of which I will uphold till the day I die. (Accidents happen) and 2: To help the prosecution, defense, AND jury determine if the "sport" method of belay in use was acceptable or not. The fact is, it is. page 136 Mountaineering: Freedom of the Hills. Clearly it was not the safest method of rappell that could have been used, and because his family was brave enough to take this to court, we can all talk about it and learn from it today.
Oh, it was also mentioned that Kyles family was suing for the monetary gain that they expected if they were to win the case. I know Kyles parents and wife, and this was clearly not their purpose. As mentioned before, I can understand why a family with limited mountaineering and equipment knowledge would seek for damages if they believed, for ANY moment, that the accident could have been a result of manufacture negligence. If asked to donate the "money" I most certainly think they would. (I don't even know if $ was part of the settlement, nor do I care.)
It might be interesting to note, also, that although this case was settled, I spoke with the attorneys of the case, and they mentioned that in fact the Jury was going to deliver a DEFENSE verdict. Even so, HB was willing to settle before the verdict was delivered, when they could have walked away without even blinking an eye toward the prosecution.
It is what it is, my friends. I'm not here to deliberate the case, just to inform the masses. I hold nothing against anybody. Thanks again for all the excellent feed back and response.
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bighigaz
Mar 15, 2004, 8:09 PM
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montgomerywick
Mar 15, 2004, 8:58 PM
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you said the defense was trying to use you to establish their theory of (contributory) negligence in training...so, you must have been subpoened to testify...
So, do not make it sound like you were undertaking some civic duty; you testified against climbing manufacturers and retailers, avoiding there and here the responsiblity of your own actions and his; which effects climbing as a whole...
Sorry, but you need to be soundly excoriated for your actions given you claim to be a "climber."
To be clear, I am an attorney actively involved in trying to open up closed climbing areas in the southeast and preserve what we have available...any climbing related cases, regardless of the outcome, have a detriemental effect on access. I doubt you will be able to realize that.
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drkodos
Mar 15, 2004, 9:15 PM
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You posted here in some peacockery of self absorption as if you were doing something wonderful for the rest of us. Your neolithic understanding of how the system works is a detriment to the pursuit of climbing. You are serving no one except yourself.
Go away and let the adults handle these types of affairs.
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cracklover
Mar 15, 2004, 9:58 PM
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In reply to: Clearly it was not the safest method of rappell that could have been used, and because his family was brave enough to take this to court, we can all talk about it and learn from it today.
You've repeated this a number of times in a bunch of ways throughout this thread. Sorry to be blunt, but I don't buy it.
Aside from the fact that it is hard for many of us to see bravery in the act of blaming the manufacturers for Kyles accident, their lawsuit has *nothing* to do with bringing this serious safety issue to light. If anything, it did the opposite, since you said you were not allowed to discuss the issue until the case was closed.
The family absolutely deserves our sympathy and our best wishes. Believe me, I know. The only thing is, I think (and apparently the jury did too) their pain was misdirected when they funnelled it into this lawsuit. I know firsthand that tragic needless accidents like this one can cause families to look for a scapegoat. Perhaps the pain is too much to bear without finding somewhere to direct it. I can imagine how easy it would be for a malpractice lawyer to manipulate those feelings. The sad thing is that I doubt anyone was truly helped by the suit.
As for learning for the future, I would say that Kyle himself, through his tragic accident, gets most of the credit for showing the importance of avoiding "not the safest method of rappel". And if there are any bravery awards to hand out, I would nominate you, for sticking your neck out to share your story with the climbing community.
GO
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bighigaz
Mar 16, 2004, 5:15 AM
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First, In response to one other point mentioned in the forum, Kyles family's pain may, in fact, have been misdirected, but that is now a moot point, and serves no purpose for resolution now that the case is finished. I feel the case was handled fairly and professionally by ALL parties involved. I've never been more impressed by the well thought out points of the defense AND prosecution.
Now, to the point:
In reply to: You posted here in some peacockery of self absorption as if you were doing something wonderful for the rest of us. Your neolithic understanding of how the system works is a detriment to the pursuit of climbing. You are serving no one except yourself. Go away and let the adults handle these types of affairs.
Wow, no offense, but if I'm guilty of self apsorption, than those accusing me, (not just drkodos), are guilty of arrogance and gross audacity of climbing knowledge and superiority of self AND of vocabulary. I consider this prideful and immature, regardless of whatever wisdom and stature you may have.
I did not recieve a subpoena, and I apologize for the implication. I was named as non-party at fault. Now Wick, you may understand the whole system of law related to this type of action from the defense, but I'm not defending myself or my ability to climb safely. My testimony was factual and as honest as I could have possibly made it. I am learning every time I am out there, and if I am in doubt, I seek a more knowledgable source.
You can judge my intentions and apparant weeknesses all you want, but you're attitudes and comments are degrading and inconsiderate.
I could have simply started this post with: "FYI: Do not rappel 'Aussie-Style' with a figure eight, especially with the device in 'sports mode' as illustrated on pg. 136 in Mountaineering: Freedom of the hills. Doing so has already resulted in the death of one individual, and I hope that his unfortunate passing can be understood by others in the mountaineering community, so as to avoid further accident."
In fact, this was the point of the post, regardless of whatever critisism you may throw at it, and regardless of what kind of misleading pedestal onto which you think I may be trying to self-elevate. I admit the words "key witness" may have sounded self directed. At this point, however, I think it a waist of time to try and redirect your understanding as to what I am trying to gain out of this for myself (nothing), so I'll just say it as it is: I could careless if anybody knew anything about me or this case, if they could simply take the facts from this post and make the best of them. Clearly comments like these below illustrate that for some, this is impossible:
"Go away, and let the adults handle these types of affairs."
"Please donate your gear and move on."
Have some respect and get back to the point. If you have nothing more to say about Kyles manner of death, then-
"Go away, and let the adults discuss these types of affairs."
or
"Please donate your words somewhere else and move on."
Now that I've said my thoughts, I feel sort of hypocritical in my responses, as I did not even maintain my declaration that this post is for one simple reason. And I'll be the first to admit that I love a good debate (drkodos should know this already), but I hardly think this forum is the place to do it. At this point I guess I'll just let the rantings fall where they may, and hopefully we can get back on track.
Quite frankly I don't think there is much more to talk about at this point. I seem to have been reading a lot lately about climbing accidents around the country. Seems to me we could all contribute, and learn, a lot more about our own safety and climbing enjoyment by donating this forum to the archive and moving on.
James.
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overlord
Mar 16, 2004, 8:14 AM
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why do you think its called "sport mode" and not "quick rappel mode"???
becasue in "the old days" when there want any other belay device avaiable, they used to belay sport routes that way.
i once asked a friend of mine (30+ years of experience, including nepal and stuff) and he said that sport belay shouldnt even be used for TR belaying.
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bradnicholson
Mar 16, 2004, 8:56 AM
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i wonder how many of the people whining above about suing the manufacturers would be so vocal if it was their child/etc? especially in light of the fact that perhaps the family doesn't really understand climbing or climbers in depth.
kind of like supporting a war, it doesn't hit home until you go off to one and then help bury your friends.
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beesty511
Mar 16, 2004, 9:05 AM
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In reply to: ...those accusing me, (not just drkodos), are guilty of arrogance and gross audacity of climbing knowledge and superiority of self AND of vocabulary. I consider this prideful and immature, regardless of whatever wisdom and stature you may have.
Welcome to rec.climbbbb...errrr...rockclimbing.com. The weather report for tomorrow calls for more insults, cawksureness in the face of overwhelming ignorance(eh, dr.?), with scattered nastiness in the morning, turning into more general degradation by evening. A low pressure front lingering over the area should result in the pattern continuing .
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drkodos
Mar 16, 2004, 9:18 AM
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In reply to: i wonder how many of the people whining above about suing the manufacturers would be so vocal if it was their child/etc? especially in light of the fact that perhaps the family doesn't really understand climbing or climbers in depth. kind of like supporting a war, it doesn't hit home until you go off to one and then help bury your friends.
I would feel the same.
I have lost friends AND family due to unfortunate circumstances. I have not sued.
I was taught accountability and responsibilty and I honor those lessons.
I was also taught that ignorance is never an excuse, and I honor that lesson as well.
There is an ingravescent problem today, symbolized by quaquaversal and nepheligenous arguments made by people incapable of resipiscence.
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drkodos
Mar 16, 2004, 9:20 AM
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In reply to: but you're attitudes and comments are degrading and inconsiderate.
The same has been stated is respect to your actions here and in the lawsuit.
So, if the shoe fits, buddy...
Unfortunately you are incapable of knowing my size.
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