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gblauer
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Mar 4, 2010, 9:58 PM
Post #76 of 128
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Latest update 3/4/10
I went to the surgeon today (after not seeing him 6 weeks). Since I am still having a lot of pain when I walk, we focused on the location of the pain and the intensity.
Bottom line: The balls of my feet really really hurt when I push off my toes (basically every step I take). He told me that this pain was much more "fixable" than if the top side of my toes were hurting. He added Hapads to my shoes and told me to let the Hapads do their thing for 4 weeks. If all goes as planned, the inflammation and irritation around my sesamoid bones will be substanitally reduced. Then and only then does he want me to try climbing,
I do have to say that the Hapads already make walking almost 100% more comfortable. I am no longer putting all this pressure on the balls of my feet.
I remain hopeful, yet very frustrated and discouraged.
The good news: I continue to work with the personal trainer and I am getting really really strong. I can keep up, I don't feel nauseated any more etc. So, if I am able to resume climbing, I should be really strong.
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onceahardman
Mar 5, 2010, 2:06 AM
Post #77 of 128
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In reply to: He told me that this pain was much more "fixable" than if the top side of my toes were hurting.
This is a good general illustration.
In general, two things can limit the motion of a joint. The difference is which side of the joint has the pathology.
Take, for example, an elbow which will not fully extend. Tight tissue in the anterior aspect (front of the elbow, cubital fossa) will restrict extension. Something in the posterior of the elbow, which mechanically blocks elbow extension forms an obstruction to motion.
Restrictions can usually be stretched. Adaptively shortened tissue can be made longer.
Obstructions to motions tend to require surgical removal to restore normal motion.
In your specific case, I'm very happy you have found some relief. I really think you irritated the hell out of a pretty freshly cut open joint by walking too much, and x-c skiing, and trying to climb, even a little bit. I think you need to more carefully monitor the specific effect that your actions have, in terms of symptom response, If walking makes your toes worse, you just can't walk as far. Use an assistive device, like a cane, two hiking poles, or crutches. Don't try to just "tough it out". That is like continuing to hit your thumb with a hammer to toughen it up.
Best of luck, Gail. This was the best post from you in the whole thread (to me).
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losbill
Mar 5, 2010, 9:49 AM
Post #78 of 128
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Gail -- Hang in there. I'm pulling for you. Good to hear the more upbeat news. -- Bill
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gblauer
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Apr 1, 2010, 9:43 PM
Post #79 of 128
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Update: April 1st
Although it's April Fool's Day, this is not a joke.
I just came back from the doctor and he told me that I cannot expect any more healing or pain relief. Basically he told me that I would be in pain when I walk for the rest of my life and that I would not be able to climb without some type of mechanical assistance in my shoe. He is suggesting that a carbon fiber strip may help, but, he is doubtful. He basically told to me find a new sport.
So, at 52, I am looking at the prospect of 30 more years of walking in pain with every step and I can't climb.
Had I known what I know now, I would have never done this surgery. The reason why I did it was because every doctor (all five) told me that I would destroy the joint if I didn't have the surgery. If I destroyed the joint, I would need a toe fusion.
Guess what? That's my only option now, get my toes fused. It may help with the pain on walking, but, it may not.
I am screwed.
Any one want to buy a gunks house and a rack?
(This post was edited by gblauer on Apr 1, 2010, 10:22 PM)
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boymeetsrock
Apr 1, 2010, 10:19 PM
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So sorry to hear this Gail. I hope it doesn't turn out to be the truth.
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k.l.k
Apr 1, 2010, 11:44 PM
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Unless there are clear structural issues that show up on x-ray or physical exam, it's way too early to throw in the towel.
Worst case scenario is that you end up an ice/mixed specialist and do most of yr rock climbing on ultra-steep ground in modified fruitboots.
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onrockandice
Apr 2, 2010, 3:17 AM
Post #82 of 128
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I have had my toes sawn in half and I have screws in some of them. My feet hurt awful for about 4 years. Then it just went away.
Give it some time. The body heals better than any doctor can "dictate". Your body will get you back on a rock wall faster than you think. Where loose fitting supportive shoes and enjoy a relaxing life. It's the only way you will heal.
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maldaly
Apr 2, 2010, 4:12 AM
Post #83 of 128
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gblauer, I climb with really f*cked feet. Foot, I mean. One is a prosthetic. But my real foot is what's f*cked. The frostbite wasted all the fat pads so the metatarsal heads are right under the skin on the bottom of my foot. Can't even stand on a smooth wood floor without pain. The trans-metatarsal tendon shrank so there is no space between my toes at all and the toe tendons are rigid so there is no toe flex at all either. Add to that, the last joint of my big toe was lost to frostbite (actually, it isn't lost. It's in Neptune's Mountaineering museum) the main join fused and my second toe was trimmed back to even everything off, kind of like leveling a table.
All that and I still climb. I have a custom shoe so that it fits the profile of my truncated foot. It's a really stiff, board lasted shoe with plenty of room in it. First in goes a carbon fiber foot bed. I need this because nothing in my foot flexes any more and its wicked painful if I try to make it flex. On top of the I'm "Gelling" with a Dr Schools Gel pad and a mineral-oil-gel toe sock for protection. With all that in my shoe, I don't have too much sensitivity left. Climbing with it is like climbing in an ice boot, but, hey, it's climbing. Some days I can climb all day. Others, I only get a few pitches in before it gets to be too much.
It beats the alternative. PM if you want to talk about it.
Mal
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robdotcalm
Apr 2, 2010, 11:10 PM
Post #84 of 128
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I’m sorry to hear about the surgery not providing the relief you were looking for. Buyer’s remorse is inevitable in a situation like this. I hope that as time moves along you actually will get some improvement and that the sense of remorse fades. I can’t think of anyone more qualified than Malcolm to provide advice on how best to be able to climb with feet that are troublesome. If you haven’t done so already, I’d urge you to contact him, beside which he’s a nice guy.
Each case is individual so there’s little point in saying that A got better in time so that implies B will also get better even though that does give hope. Whatever, I can think of myself and many friends that took some time to get over injuries and for some of which competent physicians turned out to be overly pessimistic. One thing is that technology, both in medicine and assistive devices keeps improving so that what might not be feasible today will be there in 5 years.
Cheers,
Rob.calm
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davidnn5
Apr 2, 2010, 11:27 PM
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Rob and the others have valid points re: physicians. Physicians have to be careful about giving people false hope, for liability reasons. They're much more likely to go with some kind of (deflated) average than give best-case scenarios.
I'm not keenly familiar with the aftercare system in your country, but I suspect there's also a certain incentive in the system to give patients definitive answers (that may or may not turn out to be true). Because a: physicians generally earn more on surgeries than consultations and b: orthopaedic surgeons can only do so much to heal someone, because their focus is surgery, not rehabilitation.
Hopefully Malcolm's advice will help you either way.
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milesenoell
Apr 3, 2010, 12:19 AM
Post #86 of 128
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Recovery is a mental test as much as a physical one, and part of why people gain new insights into things after returning from an injury is because you simply can't go back to how it was. The upside is that you get to figure everything out again (which made you happy the first time, right?). I've had a number of injuries that resulted in reduced range of motion and at least for me, it always goes from this scary place where I can't believe that it'll never be the same again to a place that just feels normal.
Motivation to take what you have and improve is a very powerful tool in recovery.
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onceahardman
Apr 3, 2010, 1:20 PM
Post #87 of 128
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Gail, I've seen some amazing things in my career.
I taught a cop to walk again after he had been run over by a car, and told he would likely have to have his leg amputated, and would never walk again. He's now back on the force, working full shifts, no light duty or anything.
I met a guy who had both legs blown off in Iraq, one above the knee, one below. After learning how to use prosthetics, he has become the first guy to pass jump school being a bilateral amputee, and he's going back to Afghanistan.
The point is, you trusted the surgeon's opinion before, and were disappointed. Why would you trust his opinion now? He was wrong before, he certainly could be wrong here.
While you will probably never have the feet you had when you were 18 years old, you can almost certainly have better feet than you have now. Be determined to do as much as you can, every day, without making it worse.
I will, of course, be willing to help you with any relevant advice. If you ever get a bit west, to the Buffalo/Niagara Falls area, give me a pm, and I'd be happy to take a look.
Best of luck, Gail.
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aerili
Apr 5, 2010, 4:14 AM
Post #88 of 128
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Try not to feel like you did the wrong thing. You got a lot of doctors' opinions, all in agreement. I think that means something. You have no way of knowing how your future would have turned out had you not done the surgery. Things could eventually have been worse and surgery done even less/made things even worse.
I agree with others who are saying the surgeons often do not/cannot predict things accurately. I was told in 2008 by a very kind, very excellent hand surgeon that I, too, should find a new sport and should/would never climb again without re-injury to my wrist. This was totally devastating news to me. (Ask OAHM-- he was there for me throughout my ordeal.)
Many, many months and 2 additional hand surgical opinions later, I finally had surgery. For a long time, I did not seem to be progressing nearly as fast as the literature stated was normal, even though my surgeon said I was totally fine and doing well. He seemed to regularly dismiss my concerns as an athlete and treat me like a hysterical patient with "low pain tolerance"--his EXACT words! (This man clearly had never had his arm cheese-gratered in a J Tree crack during a fall or pulled down on razor sharp limestone edges!!  )
But hey, guess what. It took a long time, but eventually I recovered to "normal" and now I am climbing harder than ever, an outcome I never expected in a million years. I thought I might be confined to climbing 5.6 for the rest of my life...if that.
What did I learn during all of this? Patience....resignation....acceptance. Later-- hope, optimism, and more respect (than I already had) to give my body the time it needed to do what it could.
Your body is not static. What it is today is not what it will be tomorrow or 30 years from now. Like I was, you might some day be amazed you ever thought you would never get better--these thoughts passing through your mind as you are climbing something awesome and challenging.
(This post was edited by aerili on Apr 5, 2010, 4:16 AM)
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lena_chita
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Apr 5, 2010, 3:47 PM
Post #89 of 128
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Gail, I am so sorry. This sounds so frustrating, and painfull. I wish there was anything helpful or constructive I could offer, but all I have is sympathy.
I know you will find a way.
And I really hope that this is not the final results, that things will yet change.
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gblauer
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Apr 9, 2010, 2:28 PM
Post #90 of 128
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Climbing with spoons in my shoes
An update from this past weekend.
Mitchal (the love of my life) inserted two metal strips in my shoes under my big toes/ball of my foot. He simply shaped the metal and taped it to the inside of my shoes. THis was just a test to see if the extra stiffness would help with my discomfort when my toe bends.
I picked a 5.3 and tentatively placed a foot on the rock (as a leader) for the first time since October 2009. I had trouble trusting my new equipment; shoes, toes and metal strips. But, I did notice one thing immediately; I had significantly less pain than without the metal in my shoes. I breathed a deep sigh of relief and let my climbing skills take over (ok, you still need a little skill to run up a 5.3). I lead 6 more pitches (4's, 5's and 6's) that day with pain that never exceed a 5 out of 10. I was thrilled to be out in the beautiful weather, playing with my gear and CLIMBING!
Mitch is working on carbon fiber inserts, but until then, look out for me at the cliff, I am the one climbing with spoons in my shoes.
Thanks all for your kind support, suggetions and inspiration.
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onrockandice
Apr 9, 2010, 2:57 PM
Post #91 of 128
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Human beings manage to thrive when told they cannot do something they love. Let it piss you off. Give medical advice the middle finger and find a way to make it work (and clearly you are).
You might also consider having your shoes resoled right on top of the current soles. It will add stiffness and support. See if the shoe-man can add a carbon stiffening layer between the two soles and you never know.... You just might hike a 5.10 in your new digs.
People get so angry on this forum about the most meaningless things. It's wonderful to see that all of us understand compassion, sympathy and support when it comes to life-changing events that happen in the lives of others. In a way we all live vicariously through each other and our related experiences. So just remember we are there with you and in your heart think of us "pushing" you up when it comes time for you to "pull" down.
I think I see a spark in you and your life-long companion that yields a lot of hope for you and sureness that you won't give up until there is no breath left in your body. Now to me that's what it means to live and let-live in America.
I salute you. You represent all of us and you are doing a fine job.
Props to your companion for taking a huge interest in bettering your life in any way he can. That's love!
Rip it up!
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onrockandice
Apr 9, 2010, 3:00 PM
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davidnn5 wrote: Rob and the others have valid points...
Can you imagine the kind of climbing that Kangaroo can do after a pint? Yes he has short arms but climbing really is about the footwork and he's got some stout boards.
In other words I think your profile image is a riot!
No intent to hijack a thread and apologies to everyone for this minor deviation.
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mojomonkey
Apr 9, 2010, 5:12 PM
Post #93 of 128
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Nice to hear you and Mitch are finding a way to get you climbing again. I'm looking forward to seeing you at the Gunks this year :)
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onceahardman
Apr 9, 2010, 10:18 PM
Post #94 of 128
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Just a thought...
Consider taping the "spoons" to your toes, then inserting your feet into your shoes.
I don't know if it will work better, but it just might.
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onrockandice
Apr 9, 2010, 10:43 PM
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onceahardman wrote: Just a thought... Consider taping the "spoons" to your toes, then inserting your feet into your shoes. I don't know if it will work better, but it just might.
Kind of makes me rethink my previous understanding of "spooning".
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onceahardman
Apr 9, 2010, 10:52 PM
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gblauer wrote: Climbing with spoons in my shoes An update from this past weekend. Mitchal (the love of my life) inserted two metal strips in my shoes under my big toes/ball of my foot. He simply shaped the metal and taped it to the inside of my shoes. THis was just a test to see if the extra stiffness would help with my discomfort when my toe bends. I picked a 5.3 and tentatively placed a foot on the rock (as a leader) for the first time since October 2009. I had trouble trusting my new equipment; shoes, toes and metal strips. But, I did notice one thing immediately; I had significantly less pain than without the metal in my shoes. I breathed a deep sigh of relief and let my climbing skills take over (ok, you still need a little skill to run up a 5.3). I lead 6 more pitches (4's, 5's and 6's) that day with pain that never exceed a 5 out of 10. I was thrilled to be out in the beautiful weather, playing with my gear and CLIMBING! Mitch is working on carbon fiber inserts, but until then, look out for me at the cliff, I am the one climbing with spoons in my shoes. Thanks all for your kind support, suggetions and inspiration.
ps Guess what? you have already proven the surgeon wrong! you are a climber again!
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davidnn5
Apr 10, 2010, 2:30 AM
Post #97 of 128
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I'm sure someone will already have given you advice to keep saying to yourself:
"There is no spoon."
The idea of climbing with spoons in your shoes just tickles my sense of humour. I'm quite tempted to try it myself just to see how it feels!
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onrockandice
Apr 10, 2010, 5:15 PM
Post #98 of 128
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Hey another idea that I had...
When I take my family climbing I usually don't put on Rock Shoes. My family isn't climbing above 5.10 so I climb in my La Sportiva approach shoes and I can climb 5.10+ in those.
You might try a pair. They have all the features of a rock shoe with all the comfort of a street shoe. I love em and I'll never approach in any other shoe again as long as I live.
Here is one of their models:
http://www.trailspace.com/...sportiva/cirque-pro/
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robdotcalm
Apr 12, 2010, 3:16 PM
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Glad to hear there is some improvement, Gail. I was thinking of you last week when the distal knuckle on my R index finger starting hurting (really hurting). At my age, I have, as is common, some arthritis but it’s always been annoying but not disabling. Anyway, if this had happened in December, I would have been tranquil and patient about it, but with a trip to Joshua Tree starting today, I was in emergency mode. And then, I thought of the sage advice I had given you to cool it. Easy to give, but not so easy to follow when it was my finger that was hurting and not your toe.
Carefully analyzing over a couple of days everything that was happening to finger, I realized that a surprising cause was responsible for the intense pain—dental flossing. I was wrapping the floss over the knuckle even though there’s not much force involved the thinness of the floss causes a high level of pressure.
Moral of the story: One has to analyze every little thing that may be causing the pain and see what can be done to modify it. It seems you’re well on your way to doing that. A doctor can give advice but can’t turn you into a research subject. Your living with it 24/7 and can probably figure out things that no one else can.
Cheers,
Rob.calm
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gblauer
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Apr 12, 2010, 3:54 PM
Post #100 of 128
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Who knew that flossing could kill your climbing! I hope you have a great trip.
As you suggested, I am learning as I go. For example, this weekend, I was able to climb some harder grades (gunks 7's) on Saturday, but, the trip back to the car was pretty tough on my feet. I need some carbon fiber inserts for my approach shoes. My feet were toast on SUnday. I was barely comfortable on 5's and 6's. I simply did not want to use my toes.
Lessons learned:
1) I think climbing two days in a row is going to be hard for me. I am better off letting me feet rest, or climbing fewer pitches each day.
2) I need to get some stiffness in my approach shoes or find a sherpa to carry me and my gear to the car after climbing
On another note, something very odd has happened with my climbing. Although I had not been climbing for 5+ months, I feel remarkably solid leading this year. I have a tremendous trust in my gear (which I never really had before). What's changed? I have no idea. Perhaps it was following my friend MIke up all the gunks 10's last summer, perhaps it's all the visualization I have been doing (in lieu of climbing). Additionally, I am delighted to see that I have not lost my technique. Although I am more creative with foot placement, I feel like I have maintained every bit of technique/body awareness despite my lack of climbing. I don't know what to attribute it to...but...I like it and I am going with it.
(This post was edited by gblauer on Apr 12, 2010, 3:57 PM)
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