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billl7
Jun 30, 2007, 5:49 PM
Post #176 of 190
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fracture wrote: Joseph is incapable of understanding or producing rational arguments, but certainly he's not alone. There are a lot of reasoning-impaired rock climbers out there. We might even say that the various old-school-esque dogmatic approaches to climbing represent a lowest common denominator of reasoning skills. Buying into that stuff requires incredible leaps of illogic and fascinating feats of unthinking. It would seem Joseph's done an above average job of mastering that craft. (Hmm: dogmaing bads argument-stancing?)
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112
Jun 30, 2007, 6:07 PM
Post #177 of 190
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fracture wrote: There are a lot of reasoning-impaired rock climbers out there. We might even say that the various old-school-esque dogmatic approaches to climbing represent a lowest common denominator of reasoning skills.
You, fracture, ARE ignorant.
(This post was edited by 112 on Jun 30, 2007, 6:07 PM)
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whoa
Jul 1, 2007, 12:09 AM
Post #178 of 190
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I just want to say that I'm really, really mad!
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zeke_sf
Jul 1, 2007, 4:53 PM
Post #179 of 190
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LOUD VOICES!!
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healyje
Jul 1, 2007, 6:44 PM
Post #180 of 190
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fracture wrote: Joseph is incapable of understanding or producing rational arguments, but certainly he's not alone. There are a lot of reasoning-impaired rock climbers out there. We might even say that the various old-school-esque dogmatic approaches to climbing represent a lowest common denominator of reasoning skills. Buying into that stuff requires incredible leaps of illogic and fascinating feats of unthinking. It would seem Joseph's done an above average job of mastering that craft. (Hmm: dogmaing bads argument-stancing?)
My, my, I see someone's been to a course on Rovian logic of late. Spin is easier to come by then a cogent argument and, remember, verbal inversions are a poor substitute for the physicality of simply getting your head upsidedown. Now I'm certainly willing to cede you and jay are a veritable Bobsy twins of authority on 'modern technique', it's just that thirty-three years of experience - half of it roped solo multipitch trad free climbing - often speaks otherwise no matter how much shadow and doubt you wish to try and heap on it.
Humans are prone to f#cking up, and so techniques are devised and pass along to minimize their occurance. But there gets to be a point in all this 'modern' gear and technique past which you are clearly attempting to compensate for a bunch of folks who simply just shouldn't be climbing at all. The dogma and relentless mantra of 'you must do this' or 'must do that' are clear symptoms of that oh so unspeakable reality.
Our crag just opened after the spring Peregrine closure and so yesterday, on the first day and in honor of this thread, I did nothing but retro single, non-locking biner hip belays on multipitch routes effortlessly catching three falls along the away, two from non-anchored stanced belays. It was 100% safe and I could have escaped any of the falls - another clear case of dead men climbing.
(This post was edited by healyje on Jul 1, 2007, 10:51 PM)
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pwscottiv
Jul 8, 2007, 9:42 AM
Post #181 of 190
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wanderlustmd wrote: Some people may shout “Gri Gri!”, but I think it’s best for people to learn how to belay properly.
1. I've been dropped with a Gri Gri.
2. Although many climbers might disagree with me (flame on) I think many climbers are teaching/learning an "unsafe" method of belaying. Look around the gym (and unfortunately at many outdoor climbing areas) and you'll see belayers "resting" for extended periods of time with their hands not in the braked position. However, I have rarely seen my students have the same problem. The reason is that many students are taught to have their hand flipped over opposite to the standard rappelling position. Although it may be more awkward for students to learn, I feel that it is MUCH safer in the long run... Especially when they begin to lead belay.
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Crazy_Shizzle
Jul 9, 2007, 7:27 AM
Post #182 of 190
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I read the post and a couple of replies so I don't know what's all been mentioned...
I started climbing indoors in december and outdoors in the spring. Exactly like I said, CLIMB...because I didn't do much belaying at all. The same thing which happened to Amy happened to me. A week ago I was lowering my friend/instructor outdoors and there were 2-2,5 m left to the ground my concentration fell, my hand got twitched in the device and the rope really got out of hand. It got so fast that the abrasion burnt my hand (I didn't know it could be that serious) and he fell the rest of the way. Fortunately, he managed to fall on his feet, no injury whatsoever, but got really mad at me and said I would never belay him again. Everyone else in the club heard what happened and I don't have any more opportunities to belay, no one trusts me anymore and I feel terrible because I betrayed someone.
Looks like I won't learn to belay 
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overlord
Jul 9, 2007, 10:03 AM
Post #183 of 190
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how on earth could you loose concentration is such a situation?
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billcoe_
Jul 9, 2007, 3:23 PM
Post #184 of 190
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Crazy_Shizzle wrote: I read the post and a couple of replies so I don't know what's all been mentioned... I started climbing indoors in december and outdoors in the spring. Exactly like I said, CLIMB...because I didn't do much belaying at all. The same thing which happened to Amy happened to me. A week ago I was lowering my friend/instructor outdoors and there were 2-2,5 m left to the ground my concentration fell, my hand got twitched in the device and the rope really got out of hand. It got so fast that the abrasion burnt my hand (I didn't know it could be that serious) and he fell the rest of the way. Fortunately, he managed to fall on his feet, no injury whatsoever, but got really mad at me and said I would never belay him again. Everyone else in the club heard what happened and I don't have any more opportunities to belay, no one trusts me anymore and I feel terrible because I betrayed someone. Looks like I won't learn to belay
Sighhhhhh, (bracing for 200 more argumentive posts).
BTW, your "instructor" let himself and you down. This ones on him more than you.
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bbirtle
Jul 9, 2007, 3:27 PM
Post #185 of 190
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Crazy_Shizzle wrote: ...my concentration fell, my hand got twitched in the device and the rope really got out of hand. It got so fast that the abrasion burnt my hand (I didn't know it could be that serious) and he fell the rest of the way....
Did you have one hand on the rope or two, just curiously?
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Crazy_Shizzle
Jul 9, 2007, 4:18 PM
Post #186 of 190
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I really can't remember because it happened so fast....I was belaying with both hands because that's how I learned it, but when my brake hand got too close to the device, when it got stuck...(I learned belaying with a classic 8, this time however I used an ATC) I'm not quite sure where my feeding hand was at that second. I might have instinctively let my brake hand off, but I wish I knew how exactly it happened to learn on my mistake. All I know now is that I did something wrong....sigh
(sorry for my not-so-good english, I'm from Bosnia (Former Yugoslavian republic))
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pwscottiv
Jul 9, 2007, 5:39 PM
Post #187 of 190
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Crazy_Shizzle wrote: I might have instinctively let my brake hand off...
The ONLY time you should EVER let your brake hand off is when the climber says "Off Belay" or, when on TR, you are sure the climber is done climbing. This includes situations such as having your hand pinched in your belay device to being hit rock that completely cuts your leg off. There is NO good excuse for dropping the climber. That said, if your instructor didn't make that entirely clear to you, then he/she deserved to be dropped.
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srwings
Jul 23, 2007, 9:54 PM
Post #188 of 190
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Been away from the RC for a while. Sort of hate commenting to an old post. Using gloves while belaying seems to get short shrift. Of course, if you are belaying right you'll probably never need them but they do seem like an added level of safety. I've seen two climbers dropped indoors at my local gym in the D.C. area. One belayer was new but the other one wasn't. Both belayers lost control of their ATCs during a leader fall and took nice rope burns. Gloves would have made a difference in both cases. Once I was belaying a friend outdoors who clipped the anchors and weighted the rope while I was still pulling in the slack. There was an awkward moment on my part when I transitioned from rapidly pulling in rope to a pre-lower lock off. While he never noticed anything I felt I came pretty close to losing control of the rope and dropping him. Maybe I wouldn't have but I was unnerved by the thought of it. And yes, I have caught him on unexpected trad lead falls. These days if I'm belaying I wear gloves.
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climb_plastic
Jul 23, 2007, 11:35 PM
Post #189 of 190
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rope burns? When catching a fall? Maybe when lowering too fast but not when catching a fall. The hand on the leader side should never get burned because it should never be locked. You should be only holding it lightly between your fingers and if the guy drops don't try to catch the person with it...Only the brake hand locks.
During your transitions you should practice the hand over hand techniques that way you always have a locked brake hand on the rope.
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srwings
Jul 24, 2007, 1:10 AM
Post #190 of 190
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climb_plastic wrote: rope burns? When catching a fall? Maybe when lowering too fast but not when catching a fall. The hand on the leader side should never get burned because it should never be locked. You should be only holding it lightly between your fingers and if the guy drops don't try to catch the person with it...Only the brake hand locks. During your transitions you should practice the hand over hand techniques that way you always have a locked brake hand on the rope.
No, they didn't get rope burns from catching falls. They got rope burns from losing control of the rope during a leader fall and then attempting to regain control by grabbing the rope directly with their hands. Both belayers were able to slow their leaders descent but at the expense of a good rope burn.
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