|
mr8615
May 5, 2004, 8:47 PM
Post #2 of 19
(3424 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Mar 4, 2004
Posts: 1032
|
I agree, this report is very thorough and detailed with lots for a climber to think about. Worth the read.
|
|
|
|
|
timstich
May 5, 2004, 9:04 PM
Post #3 of 19
(3423 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Feb 3, 2003
Posts: 6267
|
The one thing the report could use is some photographs of the accident scene, the broken rope, and the test setup including closeups of the Gri Gri.
|
|
|
|
|
timstich
May 5, 2004, 9:20 PM
Post #5 of 19
(3423 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Feb 3, 2003
Posts: 6267
|
Man. Those pictures of the damaged rope are something else. Very thorough diagrams, scene photos, and testing data.
|
|
|
|
|
maculated
May 5, 2004, 9:37 PM
Post #6 of 19
(3423 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Dec 23, 2001
Posts: 6179
|
Yup, pretty ideal. Thanks for posting it.
|
|
|
|
|
awsclimber
May 5, 2004, 9:46 PM
Post #7 of 19
(3423 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Apr 18, 2002
Posts: 118
|
Though luckily noone was hurt, I had a very similar thing happen. My friend and I were toproping in a typical manner. He reached the top of the top of the climb and I began to lower him. after about ten feet I heard a similar noise and watched as a slit apperead in the cheath of the rope. by the time he reached the ground, a huge area of the sheath was showing. When I took the rope back to the store, they refused to believe that I didn't abuse it. Oh, it was also a brand new rope. There were no marks on the ATC. It as definately a strange occurance.
|
|
|
|
|
valygrl
May 7, 2004, 3:52 PM
Post #8 of 19
(3423 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Jul 8, 2002
Posts: 247
|
A very impressive analysis.
I never gave any thought to getting stuff trapped in the belay device before this. I do use a rope bag (sometimes), but never thought of it as a piece of safety equimpment to prevent dirt or glass from entering the system.
Awsclimber's post indicates this can happen with an ATC too. Yikes!
Also, the comments on the amount of play in the grigri got me thinking, even though this was not a contributing factor to this accident. Mine is a bit rattly after so many years of use.
I think I'll go buy a new one, and finally replace those grooved-out belay/rappel biners, and examine my slings.
Thanks for making me think. (I think.)
Anna
|
|
|
|
|
billcoe_
May 7, 2004, 4:15 PM
Post #9 of 19
(3423 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Jun 30, 2002
Posts: 4694
|
Maybe impressive, but in the end, you have a 2 week old Gri-Gri and a 3 month old rope and no one can determing the actual cause of failure?
All those fine words are just fluff, in the end, nobody can explain it?
What did I miss?
|
|
|
|
|
timstich
May 7, 2004, 4:47 PM
Post #10 of 19
(3423 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Feb 3, 2003
Posts: 6267
|
In reply to: Maybe impressive, but in the end, you have a 2 week old Gri-Gri and a 3 month old rope and no one can determing the actual cause of failure? All those fine words are just fluff, in the end, nobody can explain it? What did I miss?
There may not be a clear smoking gun, but you can eliminate some possibilities, and that is better than nothing. I think the most likely culprit was a particularly sharp piece of rhyolite getting jammed in the Gri Gri of the worst shape and size. That they were not able to reproduce this at least shows that rocks falling in the device will not destroy the rope all of the time. Freak accident in other words and not likely to happen often.
|
|
|
|
|
alpnclmbr1
May 7, 2004, 5:13 PM
Post #11 of 19
(3423 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Dec 10, 2002
Posts: 3060
|
One possible benefit would come from evaluating why or why not that could of been you.
That anchor set up is one I would never ever use. I would of belayed off the harness and back from the edge.
Can you imagine what would happen to the grigri and belayer as the person being lowered maneuvered over the edge? It would have to have been messy.
Having a grigri laying on the ground in that manner seems like a bad idea. To close to the dirt.
The belayer had to have his hand on the brake release handle. He should have been able to tell that something weird was happening right away. (vibration)
Would you be willing to be lowered off that set up? I wouldn't. Rapping would have been much safer in this situation. Many top down crags entail fixing a rap line for the party.
I can’t help but speculate that the witnesses may of missed reporting some critical details leading to the mystery of how the core strands were cut eleven inches before the last sheath damage.
|
|
|
|
|
sarcat
May 7, 2004, 7:09 PM
Post #12 of 19
(3423 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Jan 22, 2004
Posts: 1560
|
I guess they did conclude that something foreign in the Gri-gri cut the rope. I thought if the sheath got cut the inside strands are the "strength"????
|
|
|
|
|
slcliffdiver
May 7, 2004, 7:21 PM
Post #13 of 19
(3423 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Mar 18, 2002
Posts: 489
|
I'm wondering if there is a way to determine the direction of rope travel of striped or cut sheath while it was being cut. This wasn't covered during the report and may be relevant to the damage above the core (rope taken in or damaged while being pulled down on or static). If I don't get feed back that convinces me this would be irrelevant or impossible to determine I'd like to contact the investigators. They have a snail mail address and phone number on the report but if anyone can hook me up via e-mail I'd appreciate it.
Thanks
David
|
|
|
|
|
alpnclmbr1
May 7, 2004, 7:34 PM
Post #14 of 19
(3423 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Dec 10, 2002
Posts: 3060
|
Their wesite is www.esssar.org
Contacting ESS
If interested in any of ESS's services, please call:
Office: (612) 827-7141
Email: info@esssar.org
|
|
|
|
|
slcliffdiver
May 7, 2004, 8:28 PM
Post #15 of 19
(3423 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Mar 18, 2002
Posts: 489
|
Thanks.
|
|
|
|
|
slcliffdiver
Jun 10, 2004, 5:47 AM
Post #16 of 19
(3423 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Mar 18, 2002
Posts: 489
|
I just got done exchanging e-mails, thanks again for the info. I had misread one of the scenarios DOOH. They knew the direction of sheath damage and were fast, friendly and professional in their responses. The only thing missing was my reading comprehension.
|
|
|
|
|
paganmonkeyboy
Jun 10, 2004, 6:23 AM
Post #17 of 19
(3423 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Apr 30, 2003
Posts: 663
|
very interesting reading
very thorough
no definate answers, but logical scenarios
very sad
i wonder how often the survivors still think of it, know what i mean ?
:cry:
|
|
|
|
|
jeffhasse
Jun 10, 2004, 2:45 PM
Post #18 of 19
(3423 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Jun 7, 2004
Posts: 7
|
Fellow Climbers,
I wanted to introduce myself. My name is Jeff Hasse and I am the principal author of the report being discussed in this forum. I was alerted a few days ago that our report was being talked about, so I have been following the threads. I posted a lengthy response on the original thread to clarify a few points.
Thank you for the accolades. It is gratifying to know that our work is being appreciated.
I would be happy to answer any specific questions you may have regarding the accident, the investigation, or the report. I also have some pictures I could share if you have questions. I will do my best to be timely in my responses, but my plate is pretty full right now. Thanks again.
|
|
|
|
|
off_route
Jun 12, 2004, 10:58 PM
Post #19 of 19
(3423 views)
Shortcut
Registered: May 28, 2004
Posts: 88
|
Jeff Hasse,
Thank you for your thurough and professional report and analysis into this tragic event. Sometimes, even with the best people and techniques (both of which appear to be present) the EXACT cause of the disaster can not be irrefutably proved. Your report does give some plausible scenarios and, possibly of more import, are the exclusions of other theories that would cause people to blame those involved, the manufacturers or others.
It is scary to think that even with the best gear and plenty of applied knowledge that accidents can still happen. Thank you again for your report. I'm sure it is of comfort to those directly involved.
Off_Route
|
|
|
|
|
|
