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bobd1953
Nov 25, 2006, 8:41 PM
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In reply to: You’re asking me to “teach” calculus to an infant? In a class without teachers...only students He said, "Be still and know that I am God."
You just keep digging yourself a bigger hole.
Your insults show just how weak your statement is.
Again...state one spritual truth.
John...I wouldn't try to find the "truths" on RC.com.
My journey for the "so-called truth" is constant and will continue to be so.
Hangerlessbolt has done nothing more but show his age...or lack of it.
My question was serious and sincere. I want to know what you think these truths are.
Again...one would be fine.
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kachoong
Nov 25, 2006, 8:42 PM
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quiteatingmysteak wrote: In science you have either something that is true or not true. Often times these things can't be indefinite
....plus you don't need science to say whether there's a chance something will happen or not....
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reno
Nov 25, 2006, 8:47 PM
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bobd1953 wrote: Again...one would be fine.
One spiritual truth? Easily done:
The spiritual wonder of truth lays not in the finding, but in the seeking.
If you don't think the search for the truth is a spiritual event, then I can't help you (and neither can anyone else.)
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bobd1953
Nov 25, 2006, 8:56 PM
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In reply to: One spiritual truth? Easily done: The spiritual wonder of truth lays not in the finding, but in the seeking. If you don't think the search for the truth is a spiritual event, then I can't help you (and neither can anyone else.)
Is that the best you can do??? LOL
That what YOU believe. That's a opinion. There is a difference.
What is a "spritual event"...or should I ask Benny Hinn.
You sure the search for spritual truth is not a MENTAL EVENT??
In reply to: He said, "Be still and know that I am God."
Is this a spritual truth????
And just who is he....and have you heard him say that???
(This post was edited by bobd1953 on Nov 25, 2006, 9:52 PM)
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reno
Nov 25, 2006, 10:21 PM
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bobd1953 wrote: blah blah blah
See, you're doing exactly what largo said you'd do: Fitting other people's answers into your own predetermined mold, finding a gap, and discounting the results.
You've got your mind made up before you even ask the question. Not much chance for enlightenment in that case, is there?
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bobd1953
Nov 25, 2006, 10:50 PM
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In reply to: bobd1953 wrote: blah blah blah See, you're doing exactly what largo said you'd do: Fitting other people's answers into your own predetermined mold, finding a gap, and discounting the results. You've got your mind made up before you even ask the question. Not much chance for enlightenment in that case, is there?
Nice stab in the dark...Reno.
I still haven't got an anwser from you, largo or hanger.
Your reply was an opinion (a weak one at that)....not a truth. You just can't seem to see that.
You also can't see that my mind isn't "made up" but is open to logic and knowledge.
You just haven't presented any yet!
(This post was edited by bobd1953 on Nov 25, 2006, 10:55 PM)
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petsfed
Nov 25, 2006, 11:04 PM
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bobd1953 wrote: In reply to: bobd1953 wrote: blah blah blah See, you're doing exactly what largo said you'd do: Fitting other people's answers into your own predetermined mold, finding a gap, and discounting the results. You've got your mind made up before you even ask the question. Not much chance for enlightenment in that case, is there? Nice stab in the dark...Reno. I still haven't got an anwser from you, largo or hanger. Your reply was an opinion (a weak one at that)....not a truth. You just can't seem to see that. You also can't see that my mind isn't "made up" but is open to logic and knowledge. You just haven't presented any yet!
Here you go: Human knowledge is limited.
I came to this via science, so if you want, i can explain it.
Also, to those arguing about the factual content of science, you've still failed to state your preference: are we getting results in the laboratory that look like phenomena in the real world, or are we getting results in the laboratory that are identical to phenomena in the real world? As always, to an acceptable level of precision.
Incidentally, we do statistical models not so we can call the mean the truth, but because the universe is chaotic (not disordered, look up the difference if you're confused) and so to try to model a single particle is not only useless, its futile.
(This post was edited by petsfed on Nov 25, 2006, 11:10 PM)
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reno
Nov 25, 2006, 11:12 PM
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bobd1953 wrote: Your reply was an opinion (a weak one at that)....not a truth. You just can't seem to see that.
Heh. Sure, Bob.
When you come to grasp the idea that (spiritual) "truth" is greatly dependant on one's views, then you're welcome to criticize other's views.
Factual truth (i.e. Martin Luther King's birthday, the date of the Battle of the Bulge, the number of people living in a city, etc.) is a far different thing than spiritual truth.
But you already knew that, right?
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bobd1953
Nov 25, 2006, 11:24 PM
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In reply to: When you come to grasp the idea that (spiritual) "truth" is greatly dependant on one's views, then you're welcome to criticize other's views.
Now we are getting somewhere.
My personal journey started a long time ago...what I believe to be true at the start has changed....and will continue to do so.
My MIND is open and will continue to be. I am just not arrogant enough to think that my truths are for everyone else.
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shockabuku
Nov 25, 2006, 11:50 PM
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bobd1953 wrote: ... I am just not arrogant enough to think that my truths are for everyone else.
Isn't that a nice idea.
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organic
Nov 25, 2006, 11:53 PM
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kachoong wrote: quiteatingmysteak wrote: In science you have either something that is true or not true. Often times these things can't be indefinite Actually in science, or anything that uses statistics to "prove" something, you can only be 95% or 99% (whatever confidence you use) confident that what you observe will be in the range you specify. Therefore you're really only guessing anyway and cannot 100% say that it is true or not true. ....plus you don't need science to say whether there's a chance something will happen or not....
Remember not all science uses statistics especially not Molecular Biology. Statistics do not prove anything and all scientists should understand this fact all P values with an alpha of 0.05 show is that there is a 95% chance that the results were not due to random chance. That is why most molecular biologists I know turn their noses at ecologists. Understanding science is understanding the applicability of results.
All science should be is the cataloguing of observable phenomenon. And by observable I mean repeatably observable.
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reno
Nov 25, 2006, 11:54 PM
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bobd1953 wrote: In reply to: When you come to grasp the idea that (spiritual) "truth" is greatly dependant on one's views, then you're welcome to criticize other's views. Now we are getting somewhere. My personal journey started a long time ago...what I believe to be true at the start has changed....and will continue to do so. My MIND is open and will continue to be. I am just not arrogant enough to think that my truths are for everyone else.
So what you thought was truth wasn't? And yet you have the temerity to tell others that what they think is truth isn't?
Well, that just redefines arrogance.
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bobd1953
Nov 26, 2006, 12:11 AM
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Boy Reno you are thick some times.
Your spirtual truth expample was maybe right for you....not the rest of humanity.
Yes... I admit my world and mind has changed since my journey started.
If you find that wrong...so be it.
(This post was edited by bobd1953 on Nov 26, 2006, 12:30 AM)
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curt
Nov 26, 2006, 12:21 AM
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Actually, I think the initial premise of Lyotard is too broad. Sometimes science can involve story telling--and sometimes it does not. For example, many problems in physics don't leave much wiggle room for storytelling. My experiment to confirm or refute a given hypothesis is going to yield exactly the same result as your experiment--even if our belief systems are quite different.
As we get farther away from the hard sciences, however--from physics to chemistry to biology to the "soft" sciences, there is increasing room for personal bias and opinion to enter the area of investigation. The less we are able to reduce any scientific phenomenon to a "particle-in-a-box" and only view the effect of a single controlled and measured variable, the more possible explanations there are for any observed outcome.
Curt
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vivalargo
Nov 26, 2006, 12:24 AM
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bobd1953 wrote: In reply to: Therefore you're really only guessing anyway and cannot 100% say that it is true or not true. Bingo!!! Same for Spritual truths...but more so! 
Bobd1953--
Here is why I didn't bother to answer your "question," Bob, because as I stated earlier, you're not actually asking a question, rather you're engaging in a "set up," and when someone goes for such a trap, you spring your pre-recorded answer, the answer you had in your head all along--that there is no way to "know" if spiritual truths are really true or not.
The curious thing is that you say this as though you know it to be a fact, when it's really just what you believe, based on what you already have decided is true, or must be true, or should be true according to your evaluating mind.
If and when you ask an honest question, meaning you actually want to find out about something to which you are really and truly clueless, then maybe an hosest discussion can follow. Normally when this is explained in this way what follows is an cynical attack from your end -- but that won't get you any closer to your answers, if in fact you really want any.
JL
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reno
Nov 26, 2006, 12:29 AM
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bobd1953 wrote: Boy Reno you are thick some times. Your spirtual truth expample was maybe right for you....not the rest of humanity.
No, Bob, you just don't get it.
Because a person doesn't agree with you doesn't make them wrong, thick, or dumb.
You might want to keep that in mind.
In reply to: Yes... I admit my world and mind has changed since my journey start. If you find that wrong...so be it.
What I find wrong is that you admit you haven't found the "truth", and yet you are 100% certain enough of what it ISN'T to tell someone else they're wrong.
You don't know the answer, but you know other's answers are wrong. And that, Bob, is what I find so sad.
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bobd1953
Nov 26, 2006, 12:35 AM
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In reply to: What I find wrong is that you admit you haven't found the "truth", and yet you are 100% certain enough of what it ISN'T to tell someone else they're wrong. You don't know the answer, but you know other's answers are wrong. And that, Bob, is what I find so sad.
No Reno...your answer was right for you...not me.
I said my world changed and my mind has changed from what I once precieved things to be... and it would be a pity if your hasn't in the last 30 years.
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reno
Nov 26, 2006, 12:47 AM
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bobd1953 wrote: In reply to: What I find wrong is that you admit you haven't found the "truth", and yet you are 100% certain enough of what it ISN'T to tell someone else they're wrong. You don't know the answer, but you know other's answers are wrong. And that, Bob, is what I find so sad. No Reno...your answer was right for you...not me.
So if someone says "I have found a spiritual truth" and explains what that is, you won't ever say "You're wrong, that is not a spiritual truth"?
Glad to hear it.
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bobd1953
Nov 26, 2006, 1:10 AM
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In reply to: Here is why I didn't bother to answer your "question," Bob, because as I stated earlier, you're not actually asking a question, rather you're engaging in a "set up," and when someone goes for such a trap, you spring your pre-recorded answer, the answer you had in your head all along--that there is no way to "know" if spiritual truths are really true or not.
No John....I asked you a question to something that you said (spiritual truths). I asked for an expample...as a starting point to where you were going with this so maybe we could expand and talk about it.
Since you think you are being set up with a spring recorded respond...
Spiritual: Of, relating to, consisting of, or having the nature of spirit; not tangible or material.
Truths: Conformity to fact or actuality.
(This post was edited by bobd1953 on Nov 26, 2006, 1:18 AM)
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vivalargo
Nov 26, 2006, 1:30 AM
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Fair enough, Bob.
First spiritual rule: We first have to deal with our resistance to the truth before much of any progress can be maid.
What does this mean? It means that there are various layers to work through, and the first one is the psychological/ego layer (a never ending process). The ego personality wants only to be right, and to "discover" answers, by way of facts and figures, that confirm what is already believed to be true. The last thing "we" want to discover is something new that will disrupt our conviction that we are correct in what we belive, or feel is true. This conditioned mindset blocks anything new coming in. So first you work on the cognitive blocks, which often have robust emotional and sensate components.
There are very refined methods to do this. A major part of the adventure is to find the method that works best with your particular personality structure. All methods are not the right methods for a given person. You have to have the right tool.
JL
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bobd1953
Nov 26, 2006, 1:55 AM
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In reply to: John wrote: First spiritual rule: We first have to deal with our resistance to the truth before much of any progress can be maid.
You say "spiritual" ...I say mental.
My life is an adventure and my mind has been the engine.
Hope your adventure continues.
Later, Bob
(This post was edited by bobd1953 on Nov 26, 2006, 2:37 AM)
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vivalargo
Nov 26, 2006, 2:56 AM
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bobd1953 wrote: In reply to: John wrote: First spiritual rule: We first have to deal with our resistance to the truth before much of any progress can be maid. You say "spiritual" ...I say mental. My life is an adventure and my mind has been the engine. Hope your adventure continues. Later, Bob
You have to work through the mental to get to the the other stuff, but don't think they are one and the same thing, Bob. They're not.
JL
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bobd1953
Nov 26, 2006, 3:03 AM
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In reply to: You have to work through the mental to get to the the other stuff, but don't think they are one and the same thing, Bob. They're not. JL
I am of the belief that any information your mind processed is on mental level...but I could be wrong.
I'm bored at work tonight...what's your deal?
(This post was edited by bobd1953 on Nov 26, 2006, 3:13 AM)
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vivalargo
Nov 26, 2006, 3:39 AM
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Hi, Bob,
I blew out my ankle a week ago, tried to come back too soon, tweaked it again yesterday and now I'm just camped here at the box with an ice pack on the bone. Doesn't seem to be helping.
JL
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