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bobd1953


Nov 26, 2006, 3:51 AM
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Re: [vivalargo] Science is Story Telling [In reply to]
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John...Biking???

Hope it mends soon.


Partner cracklover


Nov 26, 2006, 4:09 AM
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Re: [vivalargo] Science is Story Telling [In reply to]
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vivalargo wrote:
Yo, Curt--

I'm not defending the Frenchman, but his basic thesis says that all scientific inquiry is colored, in the most global way, by both the field and the researchers.

Well of course that's true! The trouble is that this is commonly used as a refutation of the scientific process, whereas it only hinders it, but does not stop it.

Revolutions in science don't come along often, and when they do, of course they are fought! When Einstein submitted his first papers, he was a complete unknown. I mean complete! And his ideas seemed preposterous. The committee that read them thought they were an extremely clever mathematical joke. But the mathematical and logical truths in those papers proved themselves. Plus, and here is the key point: they made predictions that turned out to be right. There was an eclipse in 1919 that showed that General Relativity was right, and the Newtonian prediction was wrong.

Science builds on top of itself. As a scientist, would you, after 1919, want to write theories that could be shot down immediately? No, of course not!

So, yes, scientists are no better or worse than anyone else as human beings. They can be petty, stubborn, persuasive, or not. And short-term, a good story may sway people. But long-term, however beautiful the story is, if it's disproven, the science moves on.

GO


blondgecko
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Nov 26, 2006, 4:20 AM
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Re: [vivalargo] Science is Story Telling [In reply to]
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vivalargo wrote:
Fair enough, Bob.

First spiritual rule: We first have to deal with our resistance to the truth before much of any progress can be maid.

What does this mean? It means that there are various layers to work through, and the first one is the psychological/ego layer (a never ending process). The ego personality wants only to be right, and to "discover" answers, by way of facts and figures, that confirm what is already believed to be true. The last thing "we" want to discover is something new that will disrupt our conviction that we are correct in what we belive, or feel is true. This conditioned mindset blocks anything new coming in. So first you work on the cognitive blocks, which often have robust emotional and sensate components.

There are very refined methods to do this. A major part of the adventure is to find the method that works best with your particular personality structure. All methods are not the right methods for a given person. You have to have the right tool.

JL

One of those methods is called "science".


vivalargo


Nov 26, 2006, 4:34 AM
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Re: [blondgecko] Science is Story Telling [In reply to]
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blondgecko wrote:
vivalargo wrote:
Fair enough, Bob.

First spiritual rule: We first have to deal with our resistance to the truth before much of any progress can be maid.

What does this mean? It means that there are various layers to work through, and the first one is the psychological/ego layer (a never ending process). The ego personality wants only to be right, and to "discover" answers, by way of facts and figures, that confirm what is already believed to be true. The last thing "we" want to discover is something new that will disrupt our conviction that we are correct in what we belive, or feel is true. This conditioned mindset blocks anything new coming in. So first you work on the cognitive blocks, which often have robust emotional and sensate components.

There are very refined methods to do this. A major part of the adventure is to find the method that works best with your particular personality structure. All methods are not the right methods for a given person. You have to have the right tool.

JL

One of those methods is called "science".

Certain groups who work with the enneagram (personality typology), for example, would state what they are doing is conducted in a scientific manner, insofar as they are dealing with objective (in a general and generic way) truths which are confirmed or tossed aside by virtue of empirical evidence or proof. By the same token, there's a lot of hogwash about the same topic (enneagram) when handled by charletans.

JL


bobd1953


Nov 26, 2006, 4:34 AM
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Re: [blondgecko] Science is Story Telling [In reply to]
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science...for me has answer most of the questions that I have on my adventure and I would think, continue to do so.


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Nov 26, 2006, 10:06 PM
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Re: [curt] Science is Story Telling [In reply to]
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curt wrote:
Actually, I think the initial premise of Lyotard is too broad. Sometimes science can involve story telling--and sometimes it does not. For example, many problems in physics don't leave much wiggle room for storytelling. My experiment to confirm or refute a given hypothesis is going to yield exactly the same result as your experiment--even if our belief systems are quite different.

As we get farther away from the hard sciences, however--from physics to chemistry to biology to the "soft" sciences, there is increasing room for personal bias and opinion to enter the area of investigation. The less we are able to reduce any scientific phenomenon to a "particle-in-a-box" and only view the effect of a single controlled and measured variable, the more possible explanations there are for any observed outcome.

Curt


Oooooh, I'm liking this a lot.


vivalargo


Nov 27, 2006, 1:10 AM
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Re: [philbox] Science is Story Telling [In reply to]
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Curt wrote: "My experiment to confirm or refute a given hypothesis is going to yield exactly the same result as your experiment--even if our belief systems are quite different."

I agree with this and I think the Frenchy would as well--in terms of facts and figures. I think the Frenchy was saying that the science ends with the figures and measurements--and most anything beyond that (especially what those facts "mean" in terms of what our life is) is where the story telling begins.

Some take the figures and make sweeping statements endorsing reductionist materialism as the end-all (a story); others (neuroscientists) say consciousness is not "produced" by the brain; still others posit revamped creation stories, using figures to bolster the objectivity of their stories. Such stories are attempts to present a coherent picture of the history of our lives and the universe, something post-modernism says is an artificial overlay on the random chaos of the world and of life.

Fact is, I sorta enjoy where the facts leave off and the story telling begins. It appeals to my imagination. But ultimately I prefer direct, empirical experience when it comes to reckoning what my life is all about. Others prefer tools to measure the stuff of the world, then take it from there. Ultimately I believe most of are working to bore into the same mystery -- who and what are we? Where are going and where have we been? What's it all about? That's the Big Adventure--riding those questions into the horizon . . .

JL

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