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theteacher95
Oct 23, 2007, 9:54 PM
Post #26 of 34
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Registered: Oct 6, 2007
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I'm being nonchalant because I'm on an internet forum. The mistake is both of ours because I asked him to do something he probably wasn't prepared for. The problem was a mutual lack of awareness that won't be taken lightly in future situations. We are both long time motorcyclists and we are used to having to exhibit self-control in a dangerous environment. I've also learned that there is nothing wrong with being lighthearted about ones mistakes. That being said, I started this thread because I thought I might get some useful advice and just to tell a good story. I appreciate anyones concern, but spare the attempts at reprimands. And I'm not going to hold anything against my climbing partner, that's ridiculous.
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scuzzyMD
Oct 24, 2007, 12:32 AM
Post #27 of 34
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notapplicable wrote: drfelatio wrote: There were definitely some catastrophic belay failures here, but I'm curious if the bolting on the route contributed in any way. How far off the ground is the first bolt? How far apart are the bolts from one another? For the most part I would describe them as being sparsely but adequately bolted. The climbing is relatively short, ranging from 30-60 ft and mostly those who bolted the climbs werent exactly over achievers. On the piers which are about 30ft. there are usualy two bolts. You climb 10ft. clip, climb another 10 clip and then top out. Some of the climbs only have one bolt which is plenty if the leader and belayer know what they are doing and it helps make a 30ft. route not feel to humdrum, if you know what I mean. Another thing to consider is that almost all of the routes have optional (or mandatory) gear placements in between bolts so it is possible (not the case here) for someone to get on an all together underbolted route, not realizing that they need some tricams and nuts to be safe. There are sport, mixed and trad routes out at manchester, where as some places everything would have been bolted. Which I think says something about the "spirit" in which a lot of the bolting was done.
Climb 10 feet to first bolt, clip, then climb 10 feet to second bolt, fall = deck. I would hope that the second bolt is closer to the first bolt than the first bolt is to the ground. If I see a route where the second bolt is super high then I skip it and go to another route...
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yekcir
Oct 24, 2007, 12:45 AM
Post #28 of 34
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Registered: Feb 21, 2005
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Hey teach. I've been climbing Manchester for a good while, and fell once I'll never forget. Doing pink block across from the route you were on and misclipped, my hand slimed and I ended up 5 feet off the deck, didn't hit, but my belayer was on point. All I can say is, better to fall getting a solid stance than fall trying to make a desparate clip. Sounds like it was a lesson learned on both your parts, so all the better. I still get the fear doing that clip and it will never really go away.
Keep at it, but be aware. Long falls there aren't good... not that much air between you and the ground!
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toofreakinsexy1
Oct 24, 2007, 1:39 AM
Post #29 of 34
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Registered: Oct 15, 2007
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I've climbed pretty extensively at Manchester and just how you described, it is 10 feet, then 10 more feet to the next clip. It's a pretty dangerous learning ground, I had 2 bruised kidneys, 4 bruised ribs and bruised spine muscles from using it as a learning ground for a newish belayer, I totally agree with everything everyone's saying about how crucial it is to be leaning towards shortroping at Manchester, an uncomfortable fall is WAY better than a deadly fall. And Teach... it is your belayer's fault, and he/she needs to realize it for you two to be climbing safe again.
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notapplicable
Oct 24, 2007, 1:58 AM
Post #30 of 34
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Registered: Aug 31, 2006
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theteacher95 wrote: I've also learned that there is nothing wrong with being lighthearted about ones mistakes... I appreciate anyones concern, but spare the attempts at reprimands. And I'm not going to hold anything against my climbing partner, that's ridiculous.
I think your attitude is great in this case. To many people would be sitting at home fretting about how they almost died and questioning whether climbing is "worth it". I always like to see grown adults acknowledge that they did something to themselves and arent to proud to laugh about it.
Something people often forget is that everyone has to choose their own level of acceptable risk. There is nothing inherently wrong with not being deterred by a mistake or near miss.
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jt512
Oct 24, 2007, 3:55 AM
Post #31 of 34
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Registered: Apr 12, 2001
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scuzzyMD wrote: notapplicable wrote: drfelatio wrote: There were definitely some catastrophic belay failures here, but I'm curious if the bolting on the route contributed in any way. How far off the ground is the first bolt? How far apart are the bolts from one another? For the most part I would describe them as being sparsely but adequately bolted. The climbing is relatively short, ranging from 30-60 ft and mostly those who bolted the climbs werent exactly over achievers. On the piers which are about 30ft. there are usualy two bolts. You climb 10ft. clip, climb another 10 clip and then top out. Some of the climbs only have one bolt which is plenty if the leader and belayer know what they are doing and it helps make a 30ft. route not feel to humdrum, if you know what I mean. Another thing to consider is that almost all of the routes have optional (or mandatory) gear placements in between bolts so it is possible (not the case here) for someone to get on an all together underbolted route, not realizing that they need some tricams and nuts to be safe. There are sport, mixed and trad routes out at manchester, where as some places everything would have been bolted. Which I think says something about the "spirit" in which a lot of the bolting was done. Climb 10 feet to first bolt, clip, then climb 10 feet to second bolt, fall = deck. I would hope that the second bolt is closer to the first bolt than the first bolt is to the ground. If I see a route where the second bolt is super high then I skip it and go to another route...
If you fall clipping the 2nd bolt, on practically any sport route you're going to deck. I've seen very few sport routes in which the distance between the 1st and 2nd bolts was sufficiently less than the distance between the ground and the first bolt that clipping the 2nd bolt was actually "safe." The reality is that you usually have to invoke some trad skills until the 2nd (and often the 3rd bolt) is clipped: judge the difficulty of the climbing, compare the difficulty to your skill level, judge the consequences of falling, judge your likelihood of falling, and decide whether to commit to the section or to punt (where in sport climbing, unlike trad climbing, punting includes such shenanigans as hanging and stick clipping the 2nd bolt). Keep in mind that in sport climbing, you always have the option to preclip the 2nd bolt anyway, and avoid the risk entirely.
Jay
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drfelatio
Oct 24, 2007, 5:28 AM
Post #32 of 34
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Registered: Sep 16, 2004
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notapplicable wrote: I think your attitude is great in this case. To many people would be sitting at home fretting about how they almost died and questioning whether climbing is "worth it". I always like to see grown adults acknowledge that they did something to themselves and arent to proud to laugh about it. Something people often forget is that everyone has to choose their own level of acceptable risk. There is nothing inherently wrong with not being deterred by a mistake or near miss.
His desire to get back on the wall is not what I'm driving at here. I think it's great that he can take a groundfall and not get discouraged about climbing again.
What I am getting at is that he still fails to acknowledge that his belayer fucked up. If he wants to laugh off the fact that he decked and didn't get hurt, fine, but I think it's asking for trouble to do the same for his belayer's poor skills.
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notapplicable
Oct 25, 2007, 2:18 AM
Post #33 of 34
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Registered: Aug 31, 2006
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drfelatio wrote: notapplicable wrote: I think your attitude is great in this case. To many people would be sitting at home fretting about how they almost died and questioning whether climbing is "worth it". I always like to see grown adults acknowledge that they did something to themselves and arent to proud to laugh about it. Something people often forget is that everyone has to choose their own level of acceptable risk. There is nothing inherently wrong with not being deterred by a mistake or near miss. His desire to get back on the wall is not what I'm driving at here. I think it's great that he can take a groundfall and not get discouraged about climbing again. What I am getting at is that he still fails to acknowledge that his belayer fucked up. If he wants to laugh off the fact that he decked and didn't get hurt, fine, but I think it's asking for trouble to do the same for his belayer's poor skills.
I agree with you. I just think (in his own way) he has acknowledged that his partner holds alot of the blame for this one.
theteacher95 wrote: ...first off he looked like a bumbling idiot. Seriously though, I think what happened was he grabbed the rope with the hand he was using to give me slack and didn't lock off very well with his bottom hand. Obviously, I came down with a good head of steam and I think it probably yanked 5 to 10 feet of rope through his hand.
On a separate topic. How about those pics of the burn, teach?
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desertwanderer81
Oct 25, 2007, 2:59 PM
Post #34 of 34
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Registered: Sep 5, 2007
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drfelatio wrote: notapplicable wrote: I think your attitude is great in this case. To many people would be sitting at home fretting about how they almost died and questioning whether climbing is "worth it". I always like to see grown adults acknowledge that they did something to themselves and arent to proud to laugh about it. Something people often forget is that everyone has to choose their own level of acceptable risk. There is nothing inherently wrong with not being deterred by a mistake or near miss. His desire to get back on the wall is not what I'm driving at here. I think it's great that he can take a groundfall and not get discouraged about climbing again. What I am getting at is that he still fails to acknowledge that his belayer fucked up. If he wants to laugh off the fact that he decked and didn't get hurt, fine, but I think it's asking for trouble to do the same for his belayer's poor skills.
I agree with this. In addition, it is just about the strongest manner that the importance for safety can be taught. He was in a situation where he probably should have died. Both partners realise this and will be hyper attentive to safety including belaying techniques.
Maybe they should hit up a gym real fast so your partner can catch you a few times on some lead routes first though before you guys go outside again ;)
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