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maculated
Mar 17, 2002, 7:01 PM
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Check out this website: Advanced Belay Technique
So what do you all think? That run-for-it technique sounds really dangerous for all involved. I can imagine that on a route with a major runout, this might be a nice way to take up slack, but it occurs to me that:
(1) Running like hell and then having more than bodyweight pull you back is going to send belayer flying
(2) There's no way you could take up that much slack in 2 seconds of running.
(3) You stick a belayer with that much horizontal directional force, you have one major tug-of-war going on.
[ This Message was edited by: maculated on 2002-03-17 11:02 ]
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rrrADAM
Mar 17, 2002, 7:30 PM
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I've climbed at places that require this before the leader gets some elevation to avoid a groundfall. It works.
rrrADAM
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miagi
Mar 17, 2002, 7:32 PM
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I have to admit that your right on those points. The taking-in theory i believe is right to a degree. The force of you running against the weight of the falling climber might jerk you off the ground. I believe maybe if your climber is falling you might be able to take 2-3 steps back and lock your foothold placings and it would work. But as you stated, it doesnt take that long to fall. The letting out belay is a little risky. I wouldnt really run with it, maybe do a couple feet of sliding motion.
Basically with both principles i think the term sliding, or controlled small footsteps is better than running.
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rrrADAM
Mar 17, 2002, 7:43 PM
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For every foot of rope you take, you save the leader 2 feet of fall. Just a 6 foot run, shaves 12 feet off the leaders fall. This could be the difference between the belayer getting yanked onto his ass, or the leader going to the hospital.
It really does work, and my wife is very familiar with this type of belay on PG or R rated routes. The key to this is establishing your path before the leader falls. If it is doen correctly, you can stop the leader just below their top piece.
rrrADAM
[ This Message was edited by: rrradam on 2002-03-17 11:45 ]
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maculated
Mar 17, 2002, 7:46 PM
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Hmm, interesting, i didn't take in the math (1 foot = saves 2 feet) on that, but you're right. Now the question is, are you set when the faller hits the end, or are you able to maintain your balance mid-run?
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rrrADAM
Mar 17, 2002, 7:49 PM
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I edited the above when you were replying, so reread that.
And basically this makes for a very dynamic belay for the leader, as the belayer just runs like hell till they get yanked onto their ass. A small sacrifice for protecting the leader.
Better the belay gets a little dirty and the leader can finish the route, that the leader needs a Medi-Vac due to deceleration truama.
rrrADAM
[ This Message was edited by: rrradam on 2002-03-17 11:57 ]
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miagi
Mar 17, 2002, 7:54 PM
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I guess i'll just have to try it to have some reassurance that i wont lose my balance while im running.
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rrrADAM
Mar 17, 2002, 7:59 PM
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We're talking about big whippers here... The belay will not be standing after they arrest the leaders fall.
I was on a route in Red Rocks where the first bolt was 15 feet up, and the second was 40 feet up. Do the math.
Just lock off and run like hell.
rrrADAM
[ This Message was edited by: rrradam on 2002-03-17 12:01 ]
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rrrADAM
Mar 17, 2002, 8:04 PM
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Agreed... As the link says, this is an "advanced technique". For newbies to be in a situation where this is warranted, would be asking for trouble.
rrrADAM
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rrrADAM
Mar 17, 2002, 8:07 PM
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And BTW...
Don't know if you've used Gri-Gri's before, but it would be impossible for someone to run and pull the rope through one, as there is way too much friction. They'd just pull the belayer to the ground.
rrrADAM
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rrrADAM
Mar 17, 2002, 8:22 PM
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OK... Well now I'm just left hanging.
The above 2 posts were in response to 'apollodorus' replying that the above technique sounded like a Three Stooges sequal to Vertical Limit, and that it would just get newbies hurt. He also said that the only way it might work is if the belayer had a Gri_gri, and a 3rd person were to run and pull it through the Gri-Gri. A post which he has deleted.
rrrADAM
[ This Message was edited by: rrradam on 2002-03-17 12:31 ]
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phil_nev
Mar 17, 2002, 8:36 PM
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take it from someone who has used this technique... and it quite possible saved the leader from a very serious fall,. if you are on and incline and the leader peels of the rock, run down that hill as fast and as far as you can. I would rather risk being yanked backwards and have a minor injury done to myself, than have the death of my freind on my consience.
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bulldog
Mar 17, 2002, 9:25 PM
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Here in North Carolina, we call that the "Stone Mountain Belay".
Stone Mtn. is a big slab of granite with a bunch of great friction climbs. This belay techinque, although not practical at many of the belays, can save the falling climber a fair number of scrapes on the a$$.
Stone Mtn. rules.
Bulldog
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maculated
Mar 18, 2002, 12:03 AM
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Very cool. Thanks for the info. I've been on some climbs where this might be pretty handy, and now that I know the logistics, it's good to know what to do in that situation again.
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theamish
Mar 18, 2002, 1:19 AM
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I was on the top end of one of these recently. I was at 35' which was 20' above the first bolt, as Adam said, do the math. I slipped on some moss, when I did, lucky for me, my belayer ran like hell. The rope unfortunately caught around my foot and when I got to the end it broke my ankle and later found it had torn the interior miniscus in my knee. BUY WAIT .......... my head first dive stopped about 5" above the rocky ground and I wasn't wearing a helmet. I have no doubt that had it not been for this technique, I wouldn't be writing this now. Oh yes, I also try to wear a helmet now, although to many years of bad habits usually causes me to be neglegent in this endeavor.
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theamish
Mar 18, 2002, 1:36 AM
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Oh two more things to think about.
Myself, I'd never try a runout climb with an inexperienced belayer and as a belayer I don't think I could live with myself if I didn't try everything humanly possible to save my lead climber even at the risk of injury to myself, if it meant their life.
By the way my belayer ended up slamming onto his ass when I hit, he laughed about it after he saw I was OK.
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jt512
Mar 18, 2002, 2:50 AM
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Adam et al, the running belay definitely does not make the belay more dynamic. On the contrary, it makes it dramatically less dynamic. I suspect that you (Adam) think it is dynamic because you outweigh Karen by enough that you still pull her up, even though she is running in the opposite direction. If she outweighed you -- well, ok, if some other belayer outweighed you -- you'd feel how anti-dynamic the running belay is.
The running belay has its places; namely, on low angle climbs or when the leader is in danger of hitting the ground or a ledge. Otherwise, this technique should never be used. On a steep route (from a few degress less than vertical to overhanging), when the leader is not in danger of decking, the belayer should not attempt to shorten the leader's fall. Doing so will violently slam the leader into the wall. As I've said before, this is the most common cause of injury in sport climbing. On steep routes, the correct way to belay is dynamically, which actually lengthens the fall. Read the rest of the webpage that Maculated posted the link to. This is very well explained there.
The above notwithstanding, when the running belay is necessary, it is safe for the belayer. As Adam said, the belayer should anticipate when a running belay is necessary, and plan the path ahead of time. Yesterday, I looked up at the second bolt on a sport climb I was leading, and said to my belayer, "This second clip has grounder potential. You might have to run." I was very happy when she replied, "I know. I was just figuring out where to run."
-Jay
[ This Message was edited by: jt512 on 2002-03-17 19:56 ]
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jt512
Mar 18, 2002, 2:58 AM
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P.S. While running you should also pull out an arm length of rope, and, yes, you can do this with a gri-gri. There is not too much friction.
-Jay
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rock_chic
Mar 18, 2002, 6:47 PM
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I also have used this technique and it has been used by people belaying me and I have to say, it has saved lives (or at least stopped legs or ankles getting broken)
The most extreme version of this I have seen myself was at a mountain crag near by.
The crag is on the side of a steep mountain and there is a wide rock ledge at the bottom that you stand on to belay from.
This particular climb only had one good gear placement about a third of the way up.
We did the maths...
And found the only way the leader could be saved if he fell above above half height was by the belayer and and jumping off the rock ledge, towards a 200m, sheer drop!
The leader climbed up and was nearing the top when he slipped.... the brave belayer(who really deserves a medal) took a deep breath and jumped.
And both lived happily ever after.
Which proves it works!
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murf
Mar 18, 2002, 7:05 PM
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Would you still run like hell, pull in rope if:
1.) The last piece is good, but a bit touchy, say like a medium RP or and old 1/4" bolt.
2.) The fall will be huge.
3.) The fall would not be a grounder.
What do you think?
Tom
[ This Message was edited by: murf on 2002-03-18 11:10 ]
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jt512
Mar 18, 2002, 7:15 PM
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The best you could do in the above situation would be to quickly haul in some rope to shorten the fall a bit, and then give a dynamic belay. This is covered in the article under "putting it all together."
-Jay
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rock_chic
Mar 18, 2002, 7:15 PM
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1)I dunno, I guess if that was the case I just wouldn't do the climb or wouldn't belay someone on it and if I did I'd just leave my brain down for a while so I coulnd think bout what I wuz doing
2)If the fall would just be a HUGE one but not a grounder then I wouldnt run and pull, the leader would hae to be prepared for it...
3)If the fall would just be a big one and the leader wouln't deck out (ground up,whatever)if they fell then theres no point in making a fuss..
Thats just my views....what do the others out there think???
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treyr
Mar 19, 2002, 1:42 AM
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Yeah it works good in the right situation
Trob
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murf
Mar 19, 2002, 4:10 PM
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As far as
Quote:
Would you still run like hell, pull in rope if:
1.) The last piece is good, but a bit touchy, say like a medium RP or and old 1/4" ....
I would recommend *not* pulling in rope. This will only increase the fall factor and the subsequent force on the uppermost piece.
I would also suspect that most people would be better off hauling in rope, rather than running IMHO ( more control ). The original article is British, and is seems to be slanted towards belaying for headpointing, where a belayer can be choosen for his track ability more than anything.
Murf
[ This Message was edited by: murf on 2002-03-19 08:10 ]
[ This Message was edited by: murf on 2002-03-19 08:12 ]
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qacwac
Mar 19, 2002, 5:23 PM
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jt512
I may be incorrect but it seems to me that even if the climber outweighs the belayer, when the climber falls he/she will be traveling much faster than the belayer can run. This will make them "feel" like they weigh a lot more. Just think of how in a typical fall the force is much greater when you arrest their fall then when you are just holding them there. Now I've forgotten all the physic of figuring out exactly what the weight ratios could be, but I think it could be dynamic even with a belayer weighing more than the climber.
rock_chic
That's one of the coolest things I've ever read. Wish there was a video of it.
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rock_chic
Mar 19, 2002, 6:12 PM
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thanks qacwac,
it was pretty mad alright.
We did actually have a camera but no-one felt like videoing what could be this poor guy's last climb!
Someone took pictures, but I dont know where they are ....
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rrrADAM
Mar 19, 2002, 7:38 PM
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We seem to be getting off track here. The purpose of this technique is not to reduce a whipper to a sport climbing fall. It's to be used ONLY to keep the leader from suffering serious injury as a result of groundfall, or hitting a ledge.
It is not for beginners, as this requires someone who is very proficient at belaying, as they will have to think on their feet, QUICKLY. They should be able to give an effective belay through reflex alone, this comes with experience, not reading it in a book or Forum.
Just as a beginner doesn't belong on an R or X rated route, a climber attempting one of these should not have a belayer who's skills are not way above par.
All these "what ifs ???" shouldn't apply...
If the leader is going to deck, arguing for a soft dynamic belay to protect the top piece is mute, etc...
rrrADAM
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murf
Mar 19, 2002, 8:31 PM
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Actually I disagree with "thinking on your feet" as a characterization of what one should do in this type of situation. If you haven't figured out what you're going to do *before* the leader falls, lock off and hold tight. By the time a leader has gotten into a position where a fall could have catastrophic consequences ( barring biner breaking, pro pulling etc. ) the belayer should already have a plan about what your're going to do. Thinking on your feet isn't the way to go.
Leader is way up high, above his last piece, what are you going to do? Your "reflexes" aren't going to tell you the answer. By the time a leader is high above his last piece, I've decided whether I'm going to take in rope, run like hell, or even let rope out.
Deciding whether the last piece is good enough is part of that decision, and could be critical.
Murf
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jt512
Mar 19, 2002, 8:43 PM
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I'm always surprised when a climber has never considered a running belay. When I led Stick To What, which has deck potential between the first and second bolts, I was shocked to find that my experienced trad partner, had no idea what I was talking about when I said get ready to run if I fall.
To me, and to many climbers, it is instinctual to try to shorten the leader's fall. I see belayers all the time who crouch down, lean back, or step back when they catch a lead fall. The problem is that this is often the worst thing that the belayer could do.
The article that Maculated posted the link to explains this very well: Unless the leader is going to deck or the climb is low angle, the belayer must not do anything to pull in rope as the leader's weight is coming onto the rope, because the belayer will violently slam the leader into the wall.
Consequently, the instinctive reaction to shorten the leader's fall must be consciously unlearned. When the route is steep and the leader not in danger of decking, the belayer should allow himself/herself to be pulled up or forward as the leader's weight comes onto the rope, thus, as the article explains, increasing the time over which the impact force is absorbed. This cuts the force of the leader's swing into the wall and makes the fall much safer.
-Jay
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murf
Mar 19, 2002, 9:39 PM
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As Jay has said, often increasing the distance fallen has benefits:
1.) Avoid "short-roping" a climber, thus reducing impact on the legs, usually on a sport climb.
2.) Avoid obstacles, such as roofs.
3.) Soften the impact on a touchy high piece of gear.
Conversely, as with the main point of this thread, sometimes shortening the fall is what one wishes to do.
I think Jay makes another good point that in his experience ( and mine ), most belayers seek to reduce the length of a fall. Skilled and thoughtful belayers will attempt to shorten, or lengthen, or perhaps hold tight, depending on the situation.
Most belayers should just lock off and hold tight, which is more desirable that screwing up while trying something complicated.
Murf
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theamish
Mar 19, 2002, 9:51 PM
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Hey Adam, I don't think any one is listening to what your trying to tell them .... this is ground fall that we're talking about folks, the worst thing I can imagine is a belayer that just locks on and stands there looking like a deer caught in headlights while my head tries to displace a foot or so of rock or dirt.
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jcclimber
Mar 19, 2002, 10:03 PM
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Good Theories, but I sure as heck believe in the run-like-hell technique. I hope my belayers like it too! it does have a bit of an adverse affect on both the climber and belayer due the sudden jerk, but it is definitely better than having your buddy hit the deck!
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rrrADAM
Mar 19, 2002, 11:44 PM
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Hey murf... You just paraphrased what I said in one of my 1rst replies to this Post, but tried to tell it to me.
Go figure. Did you read all of this before you posted ??? Apparently not.
rrrADAM
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arlen
Mar 20, 2002, 3:58 AM
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The technique seems sort of logical, but what about the belayer?
In both the running-away and the running-to (similar to the "jumping catch") technique, the belayer is off balance and off stance. If during this abrupt and fast movement he or she can find a stance and brace for the imminent full force of the catch, it's a safe technique.
But if he or she is rolling on the ground or being pulled into the base of the cliff as a result of the fall force (which would continue until the climber and the belayer dissipate it, there's the chance of the grigri being pinned or accidently held open, right?
And for every movement, deliberate or not, on the part of the belayer, the climber is being bounced, twirled, jerked etc, with cliff features moving past at a dangerous speed.
And what about this placement at waist level? Obviously this technique is a good idea for bolted climbs only, but I assume the waist-high piece would have to be a trad gear placement, receiving pull forces from pretty crazy angles. And if the belayer is running away, the fall forces are going to be much, much higher. If the anchor fails, there's more leader-puppet action.
In any case it beats decking at full speed. It just seems that there are lots of chances for the fall to continue due to some rough times for the belayer. How has this worked out in real life? Can you practice the technique?
Arlen
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jt512
Mar 20, 2002, 4:49 AM
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Quote:In both the running-away and the running-to (similar to the "jumping catch") technique, the belayer is off balance and off stance. If during this abrupt and fast movement he or she can find a stance and brace for the imminent full force of the catch, it's a safe technique. But if he or she is rolling on the ground or being pulled into the base of the cliff as a result of the fall force (which would continue until the climber and the belayer dissipate it, there's the chance of the grigri being pinned or accidently held open, right?
Unless you're belaying on some grim Gritstone horror show, all you're going to have time to do is take one or two steps while simultaneously pulling in an armflength of rope and then maybe drop to your knees. All you have to do is hang onto the rope while doing that. It's not that hard. You can't practice this technique with a falling leader because this technique will slam the leader into the wall. It's usually a lesser-of-two evils technique -- you're trading impact with the ground for hopefully lesser impact with the rockface.
As far as the opposite situation, giving a "jumping" belay, if you get pulled up into the air, just lock off the rope, and lower yourself down when it's all over. If you get pulled into the rock, put your legs out in front of you to absorb the impact. It's no big deal. You can and should practice this. If, like most belayers, you've been conditioned to static belaying, you need to learn to relax and be able to go with the flow. It takes a little practice to get the timing of the jump (or the steps forwar). You wait until you just feel the climbers weight, then jump. You have to anticipate this (as Murph stated) and be ready with your knees already bent. Alternatively, you can just keep your weight forward and allow yourself to be pulled forward from the fall. Just take a step or two forward when you feel tug.
As far as the grigri getting jammed open, anticipate this possibility. If I'm belaying somebody who substantially outweighs me, I stand up close to the wall so I don't get violently slammed into it, and I face the wall so that I can get my feet up to absorb the impact. In this position there is nothing for the grigri to hit. However, there are belay stances where the grigri could become jammed on something, in which case I anchor in.
Quote:And for every movement, deliberate or not, on the part of the belayer, the climber is being bounced, twirled, jerked etc...
No, the leader is free falling through space and can't feel anything from the belayer until the rope becomes tight.
-Jay
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apollodorus
Mar 20, 2002, 4:54 AM
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I deleted my earlier reply because I selfishly didn't take the time to read all the replies, only the indicated hyperlink.
But, RRRadam wanted this, so here it is:
"With a well-trained team of stunt belayers, and their union-mandated assistants and attendants, this system would seem to be perfect for shooting an action sequence for the sequel to the Three Stooges classic, "Vertical Limit.""
That posted, I aver that the run-away belay system is something that I know NOTHING about, and therefore am NOT in any position to comment on.
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murf
Mar 25, 2002, 9:38 PM
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Hey Adam - I just reread ( note the "re" ) and didn't noticed that you covered much from either of my last two posts - be more specific.
Murf
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climber1
Mar 26, 2002, 8:44 PM
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you've got to be kidding?
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joemor
Mar 27, 2002, 4:09 AM
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sounds like a cool technique, ill have to give it a go soon
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quiver
Apr 6, 2002, 4:37 AM
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Thanks for the knowledge.......
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