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mleogrande
Oct 20, 2009, 2:07 AM
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Just wondering if anybody out there trains with a weight vest. I bought a really nice one earlier this year. I use it on the finger board and sometimes for endurance training.
Does anyone have any good advice in regards to proper training with a weight vest.
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curt
Oct 20, 2009, 2:19 AM
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mleogrande wrote: Just wondering if anybody out there trains with a weight vest. I bought a really nice one earlier this year. I use it on the finger board and sometimes for endurance training. Does anyone have any good advice in regards to proper training with a weight vest.
Todd Skinner was the first guy I knew who used to train extensively with a weight vest. Unfortunately, other than offering this anecdote, I can't help you out.
Curt
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brijoel
Oct 20, 2009, 3:46 AM
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I've trained with a weighted vest and belt on various occasions.
I prefer to use them in conjunction with a finger board workout (or rock rings in my case). It's very useful if you've used up the extent of difficulty the board has to offer: you're down to the tiniest holds on it and holding it for 10 seconds or more. The added weight will definitely knock a few notches off your ego/hold size which is great because after some training, it takes a lot of the bite off of otherwise pumpy routes and slopey stuff...
I'd also suggest only training with the weight on open-hand-grip stuff; at least at first.
It's a great novelty/bit of fun when climbing, but I find that it alters my normal climbing movements to compensate for the extra inertia flinging around, which is something I'm not interested in.
If you want to wear weights while climbing, I'd instead suggest trying some slightly light ankle weights while doing heavily overhung routes... Really makes you focus your footwork, and is a hell of a workout for the abs and obliques.
- Just my experience
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jt512
Oct 20, 2009, 5:12 AM
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brijoel wrote: I've trained with a weighted vest and belt on various occasions. I prefer to use them in conjunction with a finger board workout (or rock rings in my case). It's very useful if you've used up the extent of difficulty the board has to offer: you're down to the tiniest holds on it and holding it for 10 seconds or more. The added weight will definitely knock a few notches off your ego/hold size which is great because after some training, it takes a lot of the bite off of otherwise pumpy routes and slopey stuff... I'd also suggest only training with the weight on open-hand-grip stuff; at least at first. It's a great novelty/bit of fun when climbing, but I find that it alters my normal climbing movements to compensate for the extra inertia flinging around, which is something I'm not interested in. - Just my experience
There is actually a substantial body of literature to back up your experience. Adding weight to the body while performing sport-specific activities has been shown to alter movement, resulting, frequently, in performance declines. This is not something that beginners or intermediates should be messing around with, and, as you've found, unless you really know what you're doing, you should probably restrict it to non-climbing-specific activities, like the hangboard.
Jay
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hafilax
Oct 20, 2009, 5:17 AM
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jt, what's your take on hypergravity isolation training?
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brijoel
Oct 20, 2009, 5:22 AM
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jt512 wrote: brijoel wrote: I've trained with a weighted vest and belt on various occasions. I prefer to use them in conjunction with a finger board workout (or rock rings in my case). It's very useful if you've used up the extent of difficulty the board has to offer: you're down to the tiniest holds on it and holding it for 10 seconds or more. The added weight will definitely knock a few notches off your ego/hold size which is great because after some training, it takes a lot of the bite off of otherwise pumpy routes and slopey stuff... I'd also suggest only training with the weight on open-hand-grip stuff; at least at first. It's a great novelty/bit of fun when climbing, but I find that it alters my normal climbing movements to compensate for the extra inertia flinging around, which is something I'm not interested in. - Just my experience There is actually a substantial body of literature to back up your experience. Adding weight to the body while performing sport-specific activities has been shown to alter movement, resulting, frequently, in performance declines. This is not something that beginners or intermediates should be messing around with, and, as you've found, unless you really know what you're doing, you should probably restrict it to non-climbing-specific activities, like the hangboard. Jay
Indeed.
With that said, it's probably more productive to use the ankle weights during a normal ab/oblique training schedule.
I don't personally have issues with using them climbing since the amount is so small. However, if you're just starting out and still working against somewhat messy footwork, it may not be as useful as simply practicing your footwork more often.
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girlyoutalkto
Oct 20, 2009, 3:45 PM
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I've done some training with a weight vest. In the interests of preventing injury, I concentrated mostly on doing laps on an overhanging section of my local gym (35 feet or so) on large, positive holds. No dynamic movements allowed. It was about 15 pounds and I got to the point where I could go up and down three or four times. I found it to be a great help on routes with larger and (ironically) more dynamic moves and it definitely upped my endurance. Played a large role in my breaking into 5.12. Personally I'd be very apprehensive to use a weight vest while fingerboard training. Fingerboards are stressful as it is... let alone adding on the additional stress of more weight. Fingers, even climber fingers, are delicate things! Even with my rule of no dynamic movements and only positive holds, I started to develop some elbow pain after a while.
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aerili
Oct 20, 2009, 7:22 PM
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brijoel wrote: If you want to wear weights while climbing, I'd instead suggest trying some slightly light ankle weights while doing heavily overhung routes... Really makes you focus your footwork, and is a hell of a workout for the abs and obliques. - Just my experience
I think this is a really bad idea.
For the exact reasons you stated in your paragraph directly proceeding:
In reply to: It's a great novelty/bit of fun when climbing, but I find that it alters my normal climbing movements to compensate for the extra inertia flinging around, which is something I'm not interested in.
I'm not sure how you came to the conclusion that this would happen with a weight vest but not with ankle weights.
Athletes and/or their implements are not weighted anymore for any skill training (for the reasons stated by jt512), only for training components of power, strength, or endurance called upon in their skill execution. If that makes sense.
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shimanilami
Oct 20, 2009, 7:41 PM
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I don't have a vest or belt, so I simply sling some weights with an old sling and clip them into my haul loop. It swings around a bit. At first I thought this would be a bad thing.
Ironically, I've observed that this seems to have some positive effects on my technique. It forces me to keep my core really tight, to move slowly and deliberately, and to get as much of my weight onto my feet (and off of my arms) as I can. I'll only use the weights for a couple of climbing workouts in a row, so I'm not sure what the long term effects might be. But for a "shock the system" and "be sensitive to your body position" type of workout, I think it's pretty good. In the least, it feels good and its fun.
For fingerboard workouts, weights are key.
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ladyscarlett
Oct 21, 2009, 8:59 AM
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jt512 wrote: Adding weight to the body while performing sport-specific activities has been shown to alter movement, resulting, frequently, in performance declines. Jay
So this makes perfect sense to me, especially in regards to the OP's question and the statement about ankle weights.
However, so does this
shimanilami wrote: I don't have a vest or belt, so I simply sling some weights with an old sling and clip them into my haul loop. It swings around a bit. At first I thought this would be a bad thing. Ironically, I've observed that this seems to have some positive effects on my technique. It forces me to keep my core really tight, to move slowly and deliberately, and to get as much of my weight onto my feet (and off of my arms) as I can...
I've experienced what shimalami is talking about not with weights but with a trad rack. The extra weight of the swinging gear did make me more conscious about my footwork. I may be weaker in general, but I've realized I'm much more aware of my body position and balance, and therefore use my body better, which improved performance.
These two points seem contradictory, but real life results intrigues me. Why does the added weight of the rack encourage increased body awareness and footwork, where a weight vest would cause performance decline as you say?
Is this another case of "it depends"?
still curious,
ls
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zealotnoob
Oct 21, 2009, 12:26 PM
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ladyscarlett wrote: These two points seem contradictory, but real life results intrigues me. Why does the added weight of the rack encourage increased body awareness and footwork, where a weight vest would cause performance decline as you say? Is this another case of "it depends"? still curious, ls
It's not contradictory. It's just that the gains in one scenario don't have value and in the other they do.
Train with a vest, get better at climbing with a vest--no value to unencumbered climbing. Train with a rack, get better at climbing with a rack--this has value.
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jaablink
Oct 21, 2009, 2:33 PM
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A weight vest, properly used will not cause declines in your climbing from my experience. I don’t know where jt he got that information, I would be interested in reading more if he will provide a link . I have used one for years , on and off (30lbs) . Specifically for injury prevention. I should add , I keep to jugs and large holds on steep easier routes and run laps. The added weight can put allot of stress on your tendons , making them more prone to damage until they are conditioned for the added weight. The vest is not an everyday tool. I will use it for climbing, 2 times a week ,3 days apart, for 6 weeks. Then take at least 3 months off (vest training). If you try to do to much too fast , you will get hurt….
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petsfed
Oct 21, 2009, 2:48 PM
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jaablink wrote: A weight vest, properly used will not cause declines in your climbing from my experience. I don’t know where jt he got that information, I would be interested in reading more if he will provide a link . I have used one for years , on and off (30lbs) . Specifically for injury prevention. I should add , I keep to jugs and large holds on steep easier routes and run laps. The added weight can put allot of stress on your tendons , making them more prone to damage until they are conditioned for the added weight. The vest is not an everyday tool. I will use it for climbing, 2 times a week ,3 days apart, for 6 weeks. Then take at least 3 months off (vest training). If you try to do to much too fast , you will get hurt….
Well, you're clearly training strength and NOT technique. If you were doing very finessy moves, or using holds that are very body position dependent, then you'd notice how it affects your climbing. But if you're wearing the weights on things where having less than perfect technique is not a problem, you'll see less impact on your technique as you're not forcing your entire body to adapt to the weight, just your pulling muscles.
By the way, the hangboard that Skinner occasionally did some of his early weighted training on is above the staircase that leads to my room. Metolius didn't yet have their mold dialed, so most of the holds are really shitty. No wonder he was so strong!
My roommate climbed, worked, and trained with Paul Piana and Todd Skinner when they still lived in Laramie. Curiously, most of his crazy party stories involve Jay Anderson.
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jaablink
Oct 21, 2009, 4:10 PM
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Thanks for that clarification, but I know exactly what I am training for…When I first looked into a vest for training…I had rotator damage my first year climbing, because I was too bold, and not conditioned enough. Targeting the upper body on steep rock, when wearing the vest is no accident, is a part of my injury prevention routine. The long-term benefits of this training are worth it to me.
Another example of how training a specific way/style can effect technique : If you feel like your footwork is getting sloppy / or off balance. Go climb slabs for a couple of weeks. Start off easy and work your way up to fun, super exciting, run-out cheese greater slab. When you transfer back onto steep cracks or overhanging rock, you will notice it takes some time to readjust, after witch - you will begin to notice the tech gains.
Things take time… you cant expect to go from 5.5 to 5.14 overnight. Even if you understand movement well enough to pull advanced grades your first year, your body still needs to be conditioned to do so , and that will take time to do right.
When you are building something. You want to vision the end result. Then think backwards of all the steps you need to take, to achieve that vision.
then again... what do i know...
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jt512
Oct 21, 2009, 4:57 PM
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jaablink wrote: A weight vest, properly used will not cause declines in your climbing from my experience. I don’t know where jt he got that information, I would be interested in reading more if he will provide a link .
I didn't say would cause declines in your climbing. I suggest you reread my statement.
As to links, I don't have any. Aerili might. My statement was based on controlled studies in other sports, such as swimming and sprinting. You can find them by searching Pubmed. I think that either Aerili or I have posted citations in previous discussions on rc.com, so you can try searching for those as well.
Jay
(This post was edited by jt512 on Oct 21, 2009, 4:58 PM)
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jaablink
Oct 21, 2009, 5:08 PM
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Sorry man, I should have read the whole post and not just the quote.. I wasn’t picking on you. I was just interested on reading the literature . I will check it out … thanks…
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iron106
Oct 21, 2009, 5:34 PM
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Has anyone ever tried the other way?
As in assisted climbing.
In other sports I believe it helps.
I am not sure how it would be done, thus I am asking if anyone has tried it. Have some pulley and a counter weight. Instead of climbing 5.10 I could work on some 5.12's with a 20 lb counter weight.
Of course this would only be a training technique.
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mr.tastycakes
Oct 21, 2009, 8:58 PM
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iron106 wrote: Has anyone ever tried the other way? As in assisted climbing.
power spotting? when bouldering, a little pressure on your partner's lower back will help her stay on the wall and feel out difficult moves.
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xaniel2000
Oct 21, 2009, 9:52 PM
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Yup, the pulley is one of man's earliest innovations. See rockprodigy's article for further examples, but taking off 25lb to train difficult hangboard holds is a common practice
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Rufsen
Oct 21, 2009, 10:48 PM
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I don't think anybody here has a problem adding or removing weight for hangboarding, the problem comes when you introduce movement between holds.
So hangboard with weights - Good
Climbing with weights - Bad
Campusing - Don't know how that would work, but i think i pulled an A2 just thinking about it.
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dudemanbu
Oct 21, 2009, 10:54 PM
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Rufsen wrote: I don't think anybody here has a problem adding or removing weight for hangboarding, the problem comes when you introduce movement between holds. So hangboard with weights - Good Climbing with weights - Bad Campusing - Don't know how that would work, but i think i pulled an A2 just thinking about it.
Paxti Usibiaga does dynamic campusing with a weight vest. He's also one of the very best climbers in the world.
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johnwesely
Oct 21, 2009, 11:20 PM
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dudemanbu wrote: Rufsen wrote: I don't think anybody here has a problem adding or removing weight for hangboarding, the problem comes when you introduce movement between holds. So hangboard with weights - Good Climbing with weights - Bad Campusing - Don't know how that would work, but i think i pulled an A2 just thinking about it. Paxti Usibiaga does dynamic campusing with a weight vest. He's also one of the very best climbers in the world.
Paxti Usibiaga has an exotic name. He's also one of the very best climbers in the world.
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dudemanbu
Oct 22, 2009, 2:19 AM
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johnwesely wrote: dudemanbu wrote: Rufsen wrote: I don't think anybody here has a problem adding or removing weight for hangboarding, the problem comes when you introduce movement between holds. So hangboard with weights - Good Climbing with weights - Bad Campusing - Don't know how that would work, but i think i pulled an A2 just thinking about it. Paxti Usibiaga does dynamic campusing with a weight vest. He's also one of the very best climbers in the world. Paxti Usibiaga has an exotic name. He's also one of the very best climbers in the world.
Did you know that i've heard that it's pronounced "pah-key". If that's true, why doesn't he just spell it like that?
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seatbeltpants
Oct 22, 2009, 3:19 AM
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dudemanbu wrote: Did you know that i've heard that it's pronounced "pah-key". If that's true, why doesn't he just spell it like that?
good question! foreigners, eh?
steevin
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brijoel
Oct 22, 2009, 7:05 AM
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If you'd read my follow up, you'd see that I agreed with that to a certain extent; suggesting perhaps isolated core exercising outside of climbing would be the least disruptive.
My main issue with the extra weight was in the movement change because it was 30-40 EXTRA LBS swinging around (in my case at least).
Adding some 2.5 lb ankle weights while on heavy overhangs is simply not the same degree of change in technique, if any, but rather working the same muscles in the same way.
Having done both separately a number of times, that's my personal take on the matter.
It's an issue of scale; not completely absolute.
Consider for a moment, hard trad climbing with a few pieces of gear vs. a 10-20 lb rack. They are simply not the same thing.
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