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patrick112
Sep 15, 2009, 10:10 AM
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alright so i started climbing and lasted about 6 months until i got tennis elbow and have taken the last 7 months off while travelling. I'm just about to begin climbing again when i return home and have a set of rock rings waiting for me to use. i know they are safer to use than a hangboard, but my question is it too soon to use them after only a month or two of climbing again? would i be better to stick with a normal pull up bar? i have heard rock rings are easier on your elbows and shoulders than a normal bar so that's why i am leaning towards using them.
any info appreciated.
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h-man
Sep 15, 2009, 11:30 AM
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Just climb. When your improvement begins to plateau, then start climbing specific exercises.
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rgold
Sep 15, 2009, 12:19 PM
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There are people who post here who know what they are talking about, and I am not one of them. My excuse is I have a lot of experience but no formal training. So, for whatever it is worth:
1. You need to ease back into climbing or you'll have your tennis elbow back instantly. This may not be so easy to do, given that you overdid things the first time around. I think that either pullups or almost any kind of bouldering will quickly bring back your symptoms. My experience is that tennis elbow, once you have gotten it bad, is a lifetime condition that has to be managed.
2. I don't believe for a second that rock rings are easier on tennis elbow (medial epicondylitis---actually golfer's elbow). When you pull up on rings, you tend to rotate your palms inward towards each other, which compresses the forearm muscles attached on the medial side. Because of this compression, I'd say rock rings are more likely to irritate your tennis elbow than a bar.
3. Let me be the first of a bazillion people who are going to tell you that six months into your climbing career, pullups are hardly the exercise of choice. You would be better off not doing any kind of pullup for a while, tennis elbow or not.
4. I've had a lot of experience with this ailment, and what I've learned about myself is that accustoming the hands to the stresses involved at levels that do not cause pain is critical. I'm not convinced you can do this with any kind of climbing, because just one hard pull and you're back to square one. You need total control of the loads.
The best way to do this is with (surprise!) a hangboard, but used in a therapeutic way, meaning actually no hanging; you have to have a way to work with less (initially much less) than body weight by using counterwieghts, elastic bands, or just standing on something that puts you in a very slightly overhanging position. I also think the duration of the loads has to be brief at first---like about two seconds. So very gentle repetitions of 2 sec on, 2 sec off for starters. Remember: below the pain threshold. If it hurts, you're just heading back to a debilitating injury.
5. Read up on what onceahardman has to say on the subject for an informed opinion rather than all the babble above.
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pfwein
Sep 15, 2009, 2:39 PM
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Hmmm, the original poster said he had tennis elbow, not golfer's elbow, so I wouldn't necessarily assume he used the wrong term. In my climbing career I've had both, although golfer's elbow seems much more common.
I'm just pointing this out for those strictly concerned with accuracy, and also because the two conditions have rather different effects. Golfer's elbow is a deal killer and will stop you from climbing anything but slabs; tennis elbow has mainly been a weird annoyance for me (had it almost two years, and as long as doesn't get worse, it seems to have no effect on my climbing).
By the way, I very much appreciate the perspective of guys (and gals) who have been around a long time doing, especially (although not exclusively) when they operated at a high level. So thanks.
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scion
Sep 15, 2009, 3:18 PM
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rgold wrote: 2. I don't believe for a second that rock rings are easier on tennis elbow (medial epicondylitis---actually golfer's elbow). When you pull up on rings, you tend to rotate your palms inward towards each other, which compresses the forearm muscles attached on the medial side. Because of this compression, I'd say rock rings are more likely to irritate your tennis elbow than a bar.
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rgold
Sep 15, 2009, 7:52 PM
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Scion, I was comparing rock rings to a pullup bar, not to a campus board. Of course that will be worse.
Worth trying if you insist on doing pullups is doing them on a bar with lifting straps to take stress off the hands. The idea during rehab is, as much as possible, to disconnect the hands from the pullup exercise so that each can be trained at an appropriate level.
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shockabuku
Sep 15, 2009, 8:22 PM
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If you only use your hangboard for deadhangs (fingerstrength) your chances of irritating your elbow(s) are very much less. If you do pullups on them, you're probably wasting your time (in terms of climbing improvement) as well as inviting re-injury.
I'd climb until it was obvious that my lack of ability to do a pullup, as opposed to finger strength, was my limiting factor. I've never found that to be the case. I can do one pullup no problem, probably 5-10, but I have a hell of a time holding onto crimpers on an overhanging wall and pullups isn't going to help that.
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aerili
Sep 15, 2009, 8:54 PM
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rgold wrote: 2. I don't believe for a second that rock rings are easier on tennis elbow (medial epicondylitis---actually golfer's elbow). When you pull up on rings, you tend to rotate your palms inward towards each other, which compresses the forearm muscles attached on the medial side. Because of this compression, I'd say rock rings are more likely to irritate your tennis elbow than a bar.
I think someone else said this, but tennis elbow is lateral epicondylitis. Golfer's elbow is medial epi-itis.
I am not aware that forearm pronation causes "compression" of the wrist flexors. (What is that?) The wrist flexors might even lengthen slightly during pronation, even if they are already contracted.
Otherwise good advice.
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nivlac
Sep 15, 2009, 8:58 PM
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aerili wrote: rgold wrote: 2. I don't believe for a second that rock rings are easier on tennis elbow (medial epicondylitis---actually golfer's elbow). When you pull up on rings, you tend to rotate your palms inward towards each other, which compresses the forearm muscles attached on the medial side. Because of this compression, I'd say rock rings are more likely to irritate your tennis elbow than a bar. I think someone else said this, but tennis elbow is lateral epicondylitis. Golfer's elbow is medial epi-itis. I am not aware that forearm pronation causes "compression" of the wrist flexors. (What is that?) The wrist flexors might even lengthen slightly during pronation, even if they are already contracted. Otherwise good advice.
Aerili, Onceahardman and others with medical knowledge, care to comment on this? Seems very promising for tennis elbow.
http://well.blogs.nytimes.com/...for-tennis-elbow/?em
Also: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bV-RjM_Y_hc
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overzealous
Sep 15, 2009, 9:09 PM
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Just to echo what previous posters have alluded to, its fairly unlikely that your pulling strength is the weak link in vast majority of cases.
If you've been climbing for six months, I'd bet large sums of money that your pulling strength is not where you should seek improvements.
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scion
Sep 16, 2009, 3:35 PM
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rgold wrote: Scion, I was comparing rock rings to a pullup bar, not to a campus board. Of course that will be worse.
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aerili
Sep 17, 2009, 6:48 AM
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nivlac, thanks for the link! I haven't heard of this specific research before, sounds awesome! Now they just need more clinical trials.
Eccentric exercise damages muscle a lot more than concentric exercise (and tendon is part of the this functional unit, not really 'separate' from the muscle, as so many think). They mentioned they think the eccentric exercise is remodeling the tendon; maybe damage occurring from repetitive eccentric exercise is stimulating tendon tissue to remodel in a beneficial way here....I am sure OAHM would have much more to say about this article than I would and could provide much more informative speculation.
I also work with an athletic trainer; I will forward him the link and ask him his thoughts!
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patrick112
Sep 18, 2009, 11:51 AM
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thanks for all of the information everyone. it is tennis elbow (lateral not medial) not golfer's elbow that i have had before. so basically the advice is this: climb and forego pull ups altogether? would it be too much to train the rock rings with dead hangs to improve finger strength in a very limited and therapeutic way per week? or forego that as well? thanks again.
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