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maxtrax
Jun 29, 2006, 7:09 PM
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The company I'm working for this summer has some interesting lightweight composites technology either available to it or in development. One of the projects I've been assigned to is starting the R&D process for new extreme sports type helmets (well, at least the R part). One obvious market for a lightweight helmet is climbing as along with road bicyclists we probably tend to be the biggest gram-counting geeks. In addition to hopefully creating a lighter and stronger shell we're going to look at integrating electronics in/with the helmet.
The main components we're considering right now are a built-in LED headlamp and integrating at least the antenna, earphones and mic for an FRS radio into the helmet. With our background as essentially a big EE hobby shop we could include all sorts of gizmos, from eraser-sized video cameras to GPS components or PLBs. Most (all) of these other options seem much to gimmicky and add too much weight to me, but that's just one climber speaking.
This is where you guys hopefully come in. I'd like to get the opinions of other climbers with different backgrounds and needs/wants on whether you'd even want a helmet with integrated electronics and if so what kind of stuff would you want in the helmet. This stuff would be at least partly modular so there's options for having just the FRS radio for a day at the crag, but adding on say the headlamp and GPS beacon for that once a month alpine trip. Any thoughts on just the general design/construction style for the helmet are welcome too.
Keep in mind that this technology doesn't just apply to climbing helmets, any thoughts on where this technology would fit in in another helmeted sport are appreciated as well.
Thanks,
Max
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krusher4
Jun 29, 2006, 7:15 PM
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As cool as all that sounds, climbers will just break it. I destory everything cloths, packs, glasses, "break proof" waterbottles, watches. Something has to be freaking tough for me to break down and bye it. I like the idea about lightweight super strong but the rest will just break.
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roy_hinkley_jr
Jun 29, 2006, 7:18 PM
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Helmets are now light enough (250 grams or less). But they aren't safe enough. Most companies jsut design down to the least standard they can get away with. But the standards themselves are weak. Cycling helmets in the US only meet CPSC, which isn't very good. Climbing helmets just meet UIAA requirements, which are outdated for side impact protection. The ski helmet standards are the weakest of all.
Screw the bells and whistles. Make lightweight helmets that offer real protection and back it up with testing.
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redlegrangerone
Jun 29, 2006, 7:27 PM
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I want a good helmet. I can carry a headlamp or other stuff. Just give me a comfortable, safe helmet.
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dirtineye
Jun 29, 2006, 7:35 PM
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Make the best ans safest helmet first, then worry bout the gizmos.
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maxtrax
Jun 30, 2006, 12:35 PM
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Thanks for the input guys. I'm going to crosspost this in the gear section to hopefully generate some discussion between posters if you want to join in.
Max
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maxtrax
Jun 30, 2006, 12:36 PM
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I crossposted this from the "lab" section of the forums to hopefully reach a broader audience and generate some discussion.
The company I'm working for this summer has some interesting lightweight composites technology either available to it or in development. One of the projects I've been assigned to is starting the R&D process for new extreme sports type helmets (well, at least the R part). One obvious market for a lightweight helmet is climbing as along with road bicyclists we probably tend to be the biggest gram-counting geeks. In addition to hopefully creating a lighter and stronger shell we're going to look at integrating electronics in/with the helmet.
The main components we're considering right now are a built-in LED headlamp and integrating at least the antenna, earphones and mic for an FRS radio into the helmet. With our background as essentially a big EE hobby shop we could include all sorts of gizmos, from eraser-sized video cameras to GPS components or PLBs. Most (all) of these other options seem much to gimmicky and add too much weight to me, but that's just one climber speaking.
This is where you guys hopefully come in. I'd like to get the opinions of other climbers with different backgrounds and needs/wants on whether you'd even want a helmet with integrated electronics and if so what kind of stuff would you want in the helmet. This stuff would be at least partly modular so there's options for having just the FRS radio for a day at the crag, but adding on say the headlamp and GPS beacon for that once a month alpine trip. Any thoughts on just the general design/construction style for the helmet are welcome too.
Keep in mind that this technology doesn't just apply to climbing helmets, any thoughts on where this technology would fit in in another helmeted sport are appreciated as well.
Thanks,
Max
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microbarn
Jun 30, 2006, 12:54 PM
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I like the integrated headlamp idea, but I want to also be able to adjust the direction. Additionally, I am loving the super far range and close range headlamps.
need the ability to extend the batteries down to be heated by body heat for alpine trips
extra gizmo that i would like to see is an empty storage area or a basic first aid kit. So, small razor, benedryl, ??iodine for sanitizing?? ...other people would be better to list what goes in that kit
but it should be climber specific. No crappy scissors that couldn't also be used for cutting ratty webbing. No bandaids for mini-cuts that climbers are going to climb through.
maybe get a few wildlife first responders to list their first aid kits
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tradmanclimbs
Jun 30, 2006, 1:17 PM
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NO GIZMOS other than the headlamp and then only if it is super super light!!! Carry your Oh shit kit elsewhere. extra weight on your head affects your ballance. THE MOST IMPORTANT ISSUE IS PROTECTING YOUR HEAD!!! make a light helmet that is SAFER than existing models and you have a winner. make a piece of crap with a bunch of electronic crap in it and you are LOSERS 8^) the most important factors for most climbers are, Weight, Performance and Price!! I feel that there is a real market out there for a helmet that actualy protects the back of your head for those nasty falls when you get your leg behind the rope. It also should not look as geeky as the Metior.
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chalkfree
Jun 30, 2006, 1:20 PM
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Simpler and less easily broken has got in my book, my helmet gets pretty abused so I like one that's not going to break if I drop my pack on it or get it wet. Not to mention all the sand that gets in it. It sounds like a really cool idea, but personally I'm too cheap or wary of Murphy's law for this one. The only thing you've mentioned that I could get into would be a radio, I'm not interested in a light I can't get off my helmet.
Good Luck
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skinner
Jun 30, 2006, 2:19 PM
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Now see what happens when you cross post? :P
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sterlingjim
Jun 30, 2006, 3:58 PM
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Helmet standards are terribly lame. No standard exists in the US for climbing helmets and the Europeans use EN12492 which has some absurd numbers. For instance, a blow to the top of the head with a 5kg mass from 2m must not register greater than 10kN in the neck. Do they really think a 1 ton blow to the head is survivable? The standard is also mostly concerned with falling objects and not the climber falling. A lot of modern helmets neglect the back and sides of the head that are more likely going to take a hit in a fall than the top, at least that's the way I see it.
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dleighto
Jun 30, 2006, 4:59 PM
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I definately agree that the new strong and lightweight materials that you speak of should be used to make the helmets stronger. As someone previously said, most of the current helmets are plenty light. So instead of reducing the weight just use that strength to weight ratio to increase the overall strength, keeping the helmet around the same weight.
If you were to install any electronics, a small back-up, short-range light may prove to be useful.
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jercech
Jun 30, 2006, 5:02 PM
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Cassin did a helmet with a built in LED headlamp. There's probably a full warehouse somewhere 'cause nobody bought them.
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rgold
Jun 30, 2006, 5:36 PM
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I'd say the headlamp is a definite no. You're carrying something on your head you don't need most of the time, there are lots of times when you want the headlamp but not the helmet, and headlamps improve constantly and you ought to be able to use a newer better one without buying a new helmet.
The radio is an interesting idea, if it would be very light, and very robust, and could be removed when it isn't needed or can't be used (for example because your partner doesn't have the helmet). I've never used a radio in nearly fifty years of climbing, but I've been in many situations over the years in which a radio would have made an enormous difference.
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billcoe_
Jul 3, 2006, 5:02 PM
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Max, great idea (s)! Thanks for asking us.
I think there is a market for it in climbing for sure. You could construct a single helmet shell for many sports: like skateboarding, skiing, biking, climbing. The tooling costs would drop on a per unit basis. First thing would be to determine who is the market. Do a study, keep asking questions, and put it down, in writing, as a business plan.
I agree with some of the earlier posters, sterlingjim and Rgold especially. Make it strong, light and comfortable first. What rgold says about not wanting to carry the extra weight all the time for something you rarely use is important.
I think you should look at the early handspring palm models as a paragon of modular engineering excellence. You could pop in a GPS unit, then pop that out and plug in a Mp3 player etc etc. However, they were a little slow to a hot, fast changing, competitive market though. For instance, you could add a great Innovision Mp3 player to your handspring which would cost $250 and hold 30 songs if you ponied up extra scratch for a second flash card, or - an equivalent or better stand-alone model was available from other manufacturers for less $ with the price coming down daily, and you didn't have the complication of having to hook anything up. They shot for the limited market of rich geeks. Unfortunately, that is not a large market, and they failed in their endeavors despite a superior product because of it. (Palm bought Handspring and the units are still sold as Palm Treos).
Perhaps you have a slight recess build into the helmet, like ski racers have in their helmets for their goggles, and these different devices are put on or taken off with lightweight elastic straps, like ski goggles except thinner. Then you could mix or match as you saw fit. Perhaps there’s a 3.5 or 2.5 mono jack plug-in on the helmet and permanent wiring as well.
There’s no question that some of the new fiber technology would make a helmet better than anything even close currently on the market. Yet you need more than a “better mousetrap”, you need to hit a big segment of the market and market them like a Nike would. Pay attention to the fact that comfort is something some of us would pay for. So perhaps you come out with 2 models? One is light, strong and minimalist, perhaps a cheap webbing interior which you have some Chinese company produce en mass and dirt-cheap. This is so that you can nail the price point which the masses need. The other version for climbers you produce is light, strong, and very, very comfortable, yet costs more. You haven’t increased your tooling or marketing costs significantly by trying to catch 2 segments of the market, and you increase the odds of a retailer selling only your helmets, instead of say, one of yours next to a Cassin or Black Diamond. Then you examine the various market segments in differing industries like biking, skiing, etc etc. and attack them in a similar manner.
Making the helmets would be the easy part. I don’t know what kind of a distribution chain you are bringing to the party, but you might consider partnering with established players to utilize their marketing muscle. If you research skiing, for instance, you will see that Solomon wants to be the leader in that niche. Towards that end, they have bought other mfgs when they want to hit ground in the high end running. I highly suspect they would want a Solomon branded helmet and would pay for the privilege of keeping you out of the industry by selling exclusively to them. It would be an easy sell, IMO, to walk into Solomon Corporate with a better, stronger, lighter product and suggest you’ll stamp their name on it and sell it as a ski industry Solomon exclusive for say…2 years - or whatever. I suspect they’d pay richly just to not have you wandering over to K2 or Atomic and asking them if they were interested in the deal.
Then you turn around and do the same in climbing with Trango, Black Diamond or Cassin. Maybe they don’t get an exclusive, but get their name stamped on it and you sell to all of them?
Just musing, my wrist is tweaked so I can’t get out and climb, nothing better than talking about gear or climbing when you can’t get out and do it!
Lastly, recognize that you will most likely need to partner with a Chinese mfg to make and import these things cheaply. That’s a complex subject, but keep your options open. Should you chose to keep it in the US, expect that within a short period of time, someone else will see it and import it and they will, sadly, eat your lunch and put you out of business. Sorry it is that way, but there's no getting around it.
So, do the business plan, get patents where applicable, rock and roll, and good luck!
Keep us informed on how it goes will you?!
Regards
Bill
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socialclimber
Jul 5, 2006, 1:32 AM
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some aspects of your ideas have been applied in rescue helmets. I guess the trick is to make the lid light enough for recreational users. A helmet was built for the boat rescue crews that patrol our beaches. It Incorporated water proof two way comms with a bone mike. I thought at the time the idea could be applied to climbing.
I can't find anything on the actual helmet but while searching I found this company that produces that type of comms set up.
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angry
Jul 5, 2006, 1:51 AM
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I'm in the minority here but I think a Tikka type light on the helmet would be really nice. Really really nice.
But it's got to be completely recessed. It might even have a flap to slide over the light when it's not in use. If it stuck out at all, I wouldn't buy it.
The issue of constant improvements in headlamps was brought up. I'd also argue the same is true of helmets. I just replaced a helmet, it was about 7 years old. With luck, in 6 or 7 years I'll replace the new one. That's also about how long I've had my Petzl Micro that I just stopped using last year, because my Zipka is nicer.
Can this material handle the constant abrasion, occasional rockfall (usually small), and infrequent impacts? What about getting crammed into a pack with my foot? And if it's rolling around in the back of my car and I throw a bike on it? Or a cast iron pan?
Thats the real world, not the testing lab.
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epoch
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Jul 5, 2006, 1:52 AM
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Bells/wistles are good as long as they don't go to excess. Something that most of us use regularily when climbing is a camera. Incorporate a digital camera into the lid that will take abuse and I'll seriously consider ponying up to get one. Just charge, plug in a SD chip and go.
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tradmanclimbs
Jul 5, 2006, 3:19 AM
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A camera would be fine in a higher cost model but the base model should just have the headlamp. Those of us who get on big ice climbs in the shortest months of the year use the headlamp every time we climb!
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tattooed_climber
Jul 5, 2006, 3:40 AM
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will the helmet have a TV built in to it???
pffffttt.. :roll:
seriously..get real.....and dude, think about it...think about your market for a over-priced, helmet full of crap you don't NEED and that WILL break
ahem, remember the principals of K.I.S.S.
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omegaprime
Jul 5, 2006, 4:23 AM
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To echo what has been said before me, I can't really see the need to add more stuff to the normal helmet. I personally prefer a modular design in any gear that I use, so I can adjust according to my current needs.
Need helmet with light? Attach headlamp. Need headlamp only for hiking? Detach headlamp.
Having a helmet + camera may sound cool, but I don't see the practicality either. I guess that's why I never had a need for a PDA or mobile phone that comes with a camera, because I rather have a better camera I can use for any occasion on its own. Again modularity is much more attractive for me.
However I do think that you might have a market in other sectors of the so called "adventure sports" coined by the media. I'm sure some MTB rides won't mind having a video camera attached to their helmets to capture some wild rides, or capturing the spins in a half tube by a scater.
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majid_sabet
Jul 5, 2006, 7:46 AM
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Max
Do not waste your time with these climbers, they never wear helmet
Can you have my helmet with a built-in p4 laptop and WIFI, thanks
The lord of helmet :lol:
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climbinginchico
Jul 5, 2006, 8:07 AM
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Petzl has a great idea with the Tikka XP Adapt system thats coming out soon. A head strap, belt clip, and sticky mount (which can be put on a helmet) that modularly fit into the back of a Tikka XP, which is a KICK ASS little lamp.
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maxtrax
Jul 5, 2006, 12:18 PM
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Hey guys, just got back to the office after the long weekend and was blown away by the number and general thoughtfulness of the responses. As I mentioned in my op, this is still very much the research phase and I was just trying to get the opinion of the general climbing community so I don't make crappy recommendations to my boss. Thanks for all the responses. I'll check back on this thread every day or two and keep y'all posted as much as I can on this project.
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