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nb_boarder16
May 2, 2008, 4:08 AM
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Ok, so my roomate and I were discussing the movie 'Touching the Void' the other day and wanted some climbers input on one part we didn't understand.
In the movie, when the guy is hanging over the ledge and his partner cuts him loose because he couldn't get around the knot in the middle of the two ropes (he wasn't at the end of his rope if you pay attention to the dialogue), why wasn't he able to escape his belay and let him down the last 150'?!
So far we've come up with two ways to do this, the simpler version involving just tying off the rope to his harness and switching sides of the knot and the other using a prusik cord to take the weight while he switches. I would think a climber in 'alpine shape' would be able to temporarily take the weight off the rope long enough to take the belay device off.
What do you think?! Could he have avoided cutting the rope with simple self-rescue skills? Is the movie misrepresenting the situation? Does this make sense to anyone?!
(No harrassment please. I'm not trying to belittle what they went through, it just seems curious...)
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dingus
May 2, 2008, 4:14 AM
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AS I recall from the book he was near the end of the rope. Yates was perched on a deteriorating snow ledge scooped out of the slope with no anchor. He held him for something like an hour, all the while his situation getting worse. There was no movement on the rope. He finally thought or convinced himself he had no choice and he cut the rope.
Cheers
DMT
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bwat
May 2, 2008, 5:10 AM
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I am trying to imagine doing what you are suggesting. But with the rope fully weighted by the guy hanging off the cliff and belayer not being anchored – it seems risky and impossible.
The tie off to the harness wouldn't work. Say you let go of the brake and let the knot pressure hold the weight against the belay plate. Using the free 150ft to tie into your harness, you would have to tie close to the knot because as soon as you were able to get the knot free of the plate the rope would snap tight in the slack between the knot and your harness tie off – successfully pulling you off the mountain. That all only happens if and only if you can get the belay biner free from the fully weighted rope in the first place.
I could see the prusik trick possibly working – but still seems sketchy. Prusik out in front of the Belay device, grabs rope enough to unclip and free knot. Reclip and continue. It sounds so easy when you are not dying as you slowly freeze and you support 200+ pounds hanging off the edge of a mountain while sitting in snow that is melting as you slide down the side. :)
Now what he needed was 2 belay devices! A pre and a post knot device.
I'm sure if there were internet forums back when it happened it would have been debated into the ground.
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majid_sabet
May 2, 2008, 5:16 AM
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tell me how you had done it
(This post was edited by majid_sabet on May 2, 2008, 6:47 AM)
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Myxomatosis
May 2, 2008, 5:18 AM
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In reply to: Now what he needed was 2 belay devices! A pre and a post knot device.
In no way am I judging there actions from a arm chair, I would have done the same thing and expected it from my partner to cut me as well.
But he could have possiably grabbed the belay device from his partner before they started to rappel down the mountian, in the event the knot some how got snagged into his one, could have changed it easily.
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majid_sabet
May 2, 2008, 5:19 AM
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bwat wrote: I am trying to imagine doing what you are suggesting. But with the rope fully weighted by the guy hanging off the cliff and belayer not being anchored – it seems risky and impossible. The tie off to the harness wouldn't work. Say you let go of the brake and let the knot pressure hold the weight against the belay plate. Using the free 150ft to tie into your harness, you would have to tie close to the knot because as soon as you were able to get the knot free of the plate the rope would snap tight in the slack between the knot and your harness tie off – successfully pulling you off the mountain. That all only happens if and only if you can get the belay biner free from the fully weighted rope in the first place. I could see the prusik trick possibly working – but still seems sketchy. Prusik out in front of the Belay device, grabs rope enough to unclip and free knot. Reclip and continue. It sounds so easy when you are not dying as you slowly freeze and you support 200+ pounds hanging off the edge of a mountain while sitting in snow that is melting as you slide down the side. :) Now what he needed was 2 belay devices! A pre and a post knot device. I'm sure if there were internet forums back when it happened it would have been debated into the ground. |
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curt
May 2, 2008, 6:26 AM
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bwat wrote: I am trying to imagine doing what you are suggesting. But with the rope fully weighted by the guy hanging off the cliff and belayer not being anchored – it seems risky and impossible. The tie off to the harness wouldn't work. Say you let go of the brake and let the knot pressure hold the weight against the belay plate. Using the free 150ft to tie into your harness, you would have to tie close to the knot because as soon as you were able to get the knot free of the plate the rope would snap tight in the slack between the knot and your harness tie off – successfully pulling you off the mountain. That all only happens if and only if you can get the belay biner free from the fully weighted rope in the first place. I could see the prusik trick possibly working – but still seems sketchy. Prusik out in front of the Belay device, grabs rope enough to unclip and free knot. Reclip and continue. It sounds so easy when you are not dying as you slowly freeze and you support 200+ pounds hanging off the edge of a mountain while sitting in snow that is melting as you slide down the side. :) Now what he needed was 2 belay devices! A pre and a post knot device. I'm sure if there were internet forums back when it happened it would have been debated into the ground.
The problem, as Dingus has already mentioned, is that there was no anchor.
Curt
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dingus
May 2, 2008, 3:19 PM
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The other thing to remember is they were in a white out, had been going for somethlihg 36 hours, had summited and were coming back down (I think) when the accident happened. This would have been the last lower after 10 or a dozen or more.
They were already at the end of a very long and thin rope, if you'll pardon the euphemism. Spindrift avalanches were hitting Yates in the back, constantly. His snow stance was slowing falling apart.
There is absolutely no reason not to accept the word of both climbers - had Yates done any thing other than cut the rope they would have both perished.
The only 'fault' is you must call it that - was in not going back to look for the body.
Cheers
DMT
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kachoong
May 2, 2008, 3:47 PM
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nb_boarder16 wrote: Ok, so my roomate and I were discussing the movie 'Touching the Void' the other day and wanted some climbers input on one part we didn't understand. In the movie, when the guy is hanging over the ledge and his partner cuts him loose because he couldn't get around the knot in the middle of the two ropes (he wasn't at the end of his rope if you pay attention to the dialogue), why wasn't he able to escape his belay and let him down the last 150'?! So far we've come up with two ways to do this, the simpler version involving just tying off the rope to his harness and switching sides of the knot and the other using a prusik cord to take the weight while he switches. I would think a climber in 'alpine shape' would be able to temporarily take the weight off the rope long enough to take the belay device off. What do you think?! Could he have avoided cutting the rope with simple self-rescue skills? Is the movie misrepresenting the situation? Does this make sense to anyone?! (No harrassment please. I'm not trying to belittle what they went through, it just seems curious...)
Have you read the book?
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shockabuku
May 2, 2008, 3:51 PM
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That's such a powerful story when you read it.
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WVUCLMBR
May 2, 2008, 4:01 PM
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My method involves 3 midgets, a giant boulder and a helicopter:
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dingus
May 2, 2008, 4:45 PM
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You guys are beautiful!
My method would have to involve 2 Mules for Sister Sarah:
(I never got the whole burro thing - is that just me?)
DMT
(This post was edited by dingus on May 2, 2008, 4:46 PM)
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elholando
May 2, 2008, 6:12 PM
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I thought about Yates using a prusik as a means of belay escape, but when Joe went over the edge he wasn't expecting it and the rope was paying out extremely fast. I just assumed that the knot was then jammed into his belay device, and so there was absolutely no way he could weight a prusik because he wasn't able to pay out any rope. I don't know that for sure obviously, but it wouldn't have been an issue prior because he was taking all of his weight off the rope. He had to cut the rope....however just look down into the damn crevasse and yell for a couple of minutes. I would have hugged him and said,"That's for cutting the rope." Then I would have sunk my ice axe into his back and said,"That's for not looking for me jackass!" I like his response to why he didn't,"It just didn't occur to me." No, I have not read the book, so perhaps that would explain better why he didn't take a few minutes to look for Joe.
(This post was edited by elholando on May 2, 2008, 6:12 PM)
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swaghole
May 2, 2008, 7:01 PM
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If I remember correctly from the book, the knot was used to join 2 full length ropes, so it was possible to lower the injured guy one full length of rope before having to deal wit the knot. In perfect conditions (mental and physical) they could have rigged a munter mule prussik BEFORE starting the lower. That would have made passing the knot possible if the lowering was more then a full rope's length . Of course, hind sight is 20/20. You can't pass judgement on what they could or should have done.
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wmfork
May 2, 2008, 7:46 PM
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This is a case of everything being simple in theory and quite difficult in practice, especially in less than ideal condition.
Simpson had the option of prussic the rope but couldn't (which, in theory, with 1 good leg, you can do). Either method you described involves shifting the weight to somewhere else, even if temporarily. This sounds like may not be possible (or very difficult to execute) with a collapsing belay stance. An extra belay device, prussic, and cutting the rope around the knot) probably could have worked in a slightly less dire situation, but that was what it was.
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skiclimb
May 3, 2008, 4:54 AM
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It was what it was..those two knew each others abilities and limitations and came to a very clear good resolution with eaCH OTHER..
That of all things speaks for itself as to right and wrong for them in their specific situation.
That said..I absolutely know without dobt what i would do in the same situation..
I could easily rig a way to bypass the knot and would not have waited 1 minute to do so. For me it is second nature and simplistic...However part of the reason it is simplistic for me is because I read that book and spent time thinking about it and practicing knot bypass techniques...so I may know somethign they didnt..
For me the action taken would have been impossible..but i am not them in their situation at that time.
I cannot and do not blame for the action taken.
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pentapitch
May 4, 2008, 4:00 AM
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i think the critical factor was that Yates had no anchor. perhaps, he could have rigged a prusik cord prior to the whole "lowering off" ordeal, which would have helped to pass the knot.
but, with dodgy seat anchor in spindrift, and the full weight of Simpson on a thin, wet rope, his options were way limited.
i had the unfortunate experience of having to jumar back up a dry rope on a nice day, over a roof, and it takes a pretty fair amount of strength to make progress. having a broken leg, cold, tired etc... left Simpson with pretty much no options.
also, having had a few lost episodes myself, it is very difficult to descend a route/moutain and then "cut back over" and find your original line of descent. so looking for Simpson was one thing, finding him would have been a near miracle.
imo.
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tradrenn
May 4, 2008, 5:03 AM
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Wasn't there a part where Simon explains that he couldn't prusic up the rope cause he couldn't feel his fingers and he dropped prusic cord ?
I don't think you can do much if your fingers are frozen.
and to be honest, I didn't read the book.
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kachoong
May 4, 2008, 3:33 PM
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tradrenn wrote: Wasn't there a part where Simon explains that he couldn't prusic up the rope cause he couldn't feel his fingers and he dropped prusic cord ? I don't think you can do much if your fingers are frozen. and to be honest, I didn't read the book.
From memory, I think Joe dropped a/both mitt(s) while trying to tie a prussik.
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8flood8
May 4, 2008, 4:01 PM
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in the movie, you clearly see him drop his prussik
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bwat
May 4, 2008, 4:41 PM
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For the sake of clarity from the last couple posts...
Joe Simpson – had the broken leg and was the one lowered off the edge of the cliff. He tried to tie prussik's to ascend the rope to the ledge but was unable to due to his fingers – which caused him to drop the rope before he could finish.
Simon Yates – was the one who cut the rope. He did not attempt a prussik.
(This post was edited by bwat on May 4, 2008, 4:42 PM)
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tradrenn
May 4, 2008, 6:51 PM
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Thank you. Its been a while.
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billl7
May 4, 2008, 7:36 PM
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Yeah, if only life really did run like a dictionary - it all would have been straightforward. In reality, attaching and using a prussic when hanging from a rope is a much easier game than passing a knot in a deteriorating seat belay.
I would fault Joe in the first place for not calling for a belay, hence breaking his leg and so endangering them both. Joe knew then that the best option might be for Simon to leave him to die.
Simon should have checked on Joe the next morning ... or at least planned to rest at camp for a day and return even if just to find a stone cold partner.
But god damn it, they were pushing the limits.
Bill L
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greenketch
May 5, 2008, 3:56 AM
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At risk of "revealing my old timereness" it is worth remembering where this story came from. When they returned to civilization the home boys condemned Simon for what he did and this issue was debated at great length. Than Joe wrote the book largely in defense of his partner to say, in so many words, The one who was there believes the correct decision was made.
It is great to look at what if's but until a person is there in the real world it is hard to know what is correct at the time.
(This post was edited by greenketch on May 5, 2008, 1:16 PM)
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billl7
May 5, 2008, 12:21 PM
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greenketch wrote: It is great to look at what if's but until a person is there in the real world it is hard to know what is correct at the time.
... and sometimes it is hard to know even when you are there.
Well said.
Bill L
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bagre_rei
May 5, 2008, 1:43 PM
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I recall reading one solution involving three steps (it was here in rc.com but I´ve not found it to cite the source)
a. let the knot jam into the belay device (now you have both hands to work)
b. grab some other carabiner, attach it to the waistband in your harness and make a Munter Hitch with the rope above the joining knot
c. now, use your knife (do you have one, dontcha?) and cut the belay loop
In this scenario, the worst thing is the thug you'll feel in your waistband when the Munter Hitch catches the guy touching the void. Even a few inches of free fall, when suddenly stopped can generate enough momentun to rip the belayer off his station. Then comes the fourth step:
d. let a lot of rope slip after cutting the belay loop, trying to slowly decelerate the descending guy.
That's the best armchair's solution I've found. And it´s far from optimal, with zero guarantee of working.
What those two guys made was truly exceptional.
(I'm sorry for any misspellings or other attacks against the english language in this post)
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clc
May 5, 2008, 1:57 PM
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some older harnesses didn't have belay loops. but its seems feasible.
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pentapitch
May 6, 2008, 1:32 AM
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the "let knot jam and cut belay loop" scenario does make sense.
maybe, to try and minimize the jerk when the loop is cut, is to put a prussik cord around the rope, below the jammed belay device?
never tried anything like this. all depends on if you can hold the other climber with dodgy belay.
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skiclimb
May 6, 2008, 6:53 AM
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For instructional purposes lemme solve this problem for you.
Number one as you are lowering into unknown territory with two ropes tied together you must keep an ey on the knot ..once the knot comes within a couple feet of the belay device you must prepare for knot bypass.
This can be an utterly smooth and simple process if you are familiar with it.
preferably you haVE A SLING LONG ENOUGH TO DO A FRENCH PRUSSIK,,,the simplest of all autolocking prussik type knots which doubles usefully as tension release device. If your sling is too short to do an effective french prisik a kleimheist will work but not be as smooth for tension release. will go back to procedure for jammed nknot if using a kleimheist.
once the rope is supported from by the prusik you escape from system..ie undo your belay device and reset it just above the knot jammed tight to the knot.
release slack with the french prusik and then undo the prusik..you are now good to go for the second rope length.
However if at any time you become jammed into the belay device you will need two prusik slings..
one to secure the rope below the belay device..then cut the rope at the knot..then do a second prussik in ordr to clip the ropes together using the second prusik as an intermediary. if your original sling was long enough and second short enough you may be able to engage the belay device completely before jamming the two knots together and having to cut the first knot ..creating a jolt you may not want to risk in a shaky belay seat.
(This post was edited by skiclimb on May 6, 2008, 6:55 AM)
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RMC
Dec 1, 2009, 7:59 PM
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Hey.......is this the guy we met @ Gahn Hyun & Eun Bong rock wall South Korea?
Rich McKellop
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dugl33
Dec 1, 2009, 8:40 PM
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In no way meaning to pass judgement -- I wasn't there.
This said -
If a prussik type knot was set up ahead of time by the belayer, with a munter mule or mariners knot, this could have been used to pass the knot around the belay device. Anchor or no anchor, he held the weight with his stance for over an hour. No reason he couldn't have held the weight directly on his harness long enough to pass the knot.
If this was not set up ahead of time, as was the case here, he might have been able to pass the rope through the device and tie an atc mule knot, set up the prusik and pass the knot.
If he had some biners, free slings or prusik cord, he might have been able to rig something after the fact, if he acted before the knot was jammed into the device. Even without a load releasing prussik, he did have a knife, so he could have cut the prusik, although maybe the drop would have pulled him out of his stance.
Also, old school harnasses had no belay loop. Cut the harnass? Then what, hip belay lower your partner?
I'm sure in reality, without a mechanism to pass the knot set up ahead of time, setting something up after the fact might have been really tough to do. I would also posit though, that passing the knot under load had never been thought through or practiced, and he was cold, tired, dehydrated, at a shitty slipping stance, with a foggy mental state. If he had acted on it immediately, rather than an hour later, maybe he could have solved it.
(This post was edited by dugl33 on Dec 3, 2009, 3:39 AM)
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billcoe_
Dec 1, 2009, 8:54 PM
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Most you you would have given up and left broken leg dude up on the Mt. That they made it down in a 36 hour push and out of water was a remarkqable feat. Yates did look for Joe, but he had disappeared when he punched a hole into a hidden crevasse.
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nikmit
Dec 2, 2009, 8:45 AM
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billcoe_ wrote: Most you you would have given up and left broken leg dude up on the Mt. That they made it down in a 36 hour push and out of water was a remarkqable feat. Yates did look for Joe, but he had disappeared when he punched a hole into a hidden crevasse.
I stand behind Simon’s decision. Even Joe did- as far as I remember the first thing he said to Simon when he made it to the camp was: “I would have done the same thing”.
Keep in mind that they both were heavily dehydrated, at some stage of hypothermia, trying to survive in conditions, where you can have vodka on a stick… The wind-chill factor: -70C. It’s not your every day climb.
According to Simon, when he saw the deep crevasse, he assumed that Joe was dead, and then he also thought that he’s going to die, because he had to cross the glacier alone. When he made it where’s the sense to go back through the glacier and search for the dead body?
Here, where I’m from, we have plenty of climbers… in the summer. In the winter is different story. All of those heroes stay in bars, or in huts, trying to “nail” a girl, or just saying how great they are. When you ask them: “What have you been climbing recently?” the answers you get are: “Oh, the weather’s been shitty” “It’s too cold” and stuff like that. That said they don’t know the feeling of not feeling your body, they don’t know what it’s like to bash your hands against the rock, thinking “Please God, let the pain come…”, or what it takes to fight your wish to lay on the snow and have a sleep because of the hypothermia…
I don’t want to insult anyone, but if you don’t know what it’s like, then bugger off, you don’t have the right to judge Simon. What they’ve done was something extraordinary.
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sherpa79
Dec 2, 2009, 12:33 PM
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I in no way criticize those guys, but here's another possible solution, assuming the entire weight of the guy can be put on the harness and you have a spare biner.
Mule knot the belay device before you hit the rope join.
Find the end of the second rope and tie a blake's hitch on the weighted line.
Put a munter hitch below the blakes and put that on your harness.
Transfer the weight off the ATC/device and pass the knot.
Take the munter/blakes off and tie a knot in the end.
The good thing about this method is that you don't have to worry about the length of your prussik sling as you are working with the second rope.
The one thing that would suck is if you lowered the blakes past your reach, especially sans anchor. But if you have a knife you can cut that after you cross the knot. You'll loose a few feet off the end but that's it.
Also, after loading the blakes and munter, you could concievably keep lowering with that by untying the rope join. You'd definitely want a stopper knot under the blake's hitch though where the rope join was. Doing thiswould really depend on what kind of lip you were facing as well.
(This post was edited by sherpa79 on Dec 2, 2009, 4:54 PM)
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void1.JPG
