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dustinap
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Mar 19, 2002, 4:04 AM
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For the people who know and understand why a grigri makes a belay more static then a belay plate, figure 8, munterhitch, or hip belay, I would like to know if you use these when trad climbing or not. I know what Petzl says about this. I do however seen people doing trad routes with a gri-gri. I know that people use grigris when aid climbing, but that is because 5 hours of belaying someone can make your mind drift alittle.
So, basically, do you feel this is a safe practice, or feel that it is really, really bad and shouldn't be done.
I don't feel like explaining why grigris are provide a much greater load on the pro, and I'm also not educated enough on the subject to explain it in a way someone other then me would understand.
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apollodorus
Mar 19, 2002, 4:26 AM
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A gri-gri is a cammed device similar to a Jumar ascender. When the cam grabs the rope it WILL NOT slip. A belay plate, Fig-8 and Munter Hitch will all slip a little on a severe fall, reducing the impact force on the protection. Slipping a little at the belay is a dynamic action, similar to the rope stretching. Both reduce the load on anchors. What happens is the load on the anchor develops relatively slowly, and not as a sudden jerk. Taking a leader fall on a static rope held by a Gri-Gri would develop HUGE forces on the piece, because the load on it would go from zero to the maximum in almost no time at all. A funkness device, used to rip heads while cleaning an aid pitch, takes advantage of the no-stretch shock/impact of a steel cable to pop the heads out. Trying to funk heads out with a piece of nylon rope isn't going to work.
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krustyklimber
Mar 19, 2002, 4:28 AM
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Good question, the answer has many variables it depends on the type of rock, and the quality of pro placed, but I'm sure Jay will be along soon and can set you straight on the Gri-Gri (we don't agree on much, but, He knows his stuff when it comes to the Gri-Gri)
Jeff
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tenn_dawg
Mar 19, 2002, 5:29 AM
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If your belayer is really on the ball, a belay plate, or a ATC will be able to give a static belay just like a Gri-Gri. I have found that these devices will only give a dynamic belay if either 1.Your belayer is not paying attention, and lets some rope slip before locking you off, or 2.Intentionally gives you a dynamic belay by letting the rope slip before catching you. The only time I have ever wanted a Dynamic belay is when I have more than 1 dicey piece of pro under me, and there is absolutely nothing to hit if I fall. This is pretty rare, and i'd say 90% of the time the dynamic properties of the rope will absorb enough of the impact that even a dicey placement will not fail.
So after all that rambling I say Yeah a Gri-Gri is safe trad climbing, and it adds bit of redundancy that makes me feel better, especially if i am out of sight of my belayer.
My 2 cents.
Travis
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jt512
Mar 20, 2002, 4:11 AM
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Quote:If your belayer is really on the ball, a belay plate, or a ATC will be able to give a static belay just like a Gri-Gri.
You say that like it's a good thing.
No matter how hard your belayer tries, an ATC will only hold a 500 lb pull before it allows the rope to slip. That's a safety factor engineered into the device to protect the leader's protection. So, in answer to the original question, I do not belay with a gri-gri while trad climbing.
Quote:I have found that these devices will only give a dynamic belay if either 1.Your belayer is not paying attention, and lets some rope slip before locking you off, or 2.Intentionally gives you a dynamic belay by letting the rope slip before catching you. Then you've never held a hard fall.
Quote:The only time I have ever wanted a Dynamic belay is when I have more than 1 dicey piece of pro under me, and there is absolutely nothing to hit if I fall. This is pretty rare...
You should want a dynamic belay whenever your pro is dicey *or* there is nothing for you to hit. The latter case means you are climbing something steep, and a static belay can slam you into the wall and break your ankle.
Quote:...and i'd say 90% of the time the dynamic properties of the rope will absorb enough of the impact that even a dicey placement will not fail.
I have no idea what percentage of the time it would occur, but it is easy to describe a situation in which a static belay would cause a piece to fail. A medium-small nut has a rated strength of about 800 lb. Even a minor lead fall on a dynamic rope will generate 600 lb of force on the falling climber. The belay device will feel about two-thirds of that amount, ie 400 lb. The nut feels the sum of those two forces, or 1000 lb, and the piece fails. However, a dynamic belay could keep the total force below the 800 lb rated strength of the nut.
Quote:So after all that rambling I say Yeah a Gri-Gri is safe trad climbing...
Are you aware that Petzl disagrees with you?
-Jay
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beyond_gravity
Mar 21, 2002, 8:11 PM
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I hate gri gri's for lead belaying, i have one, and only use it for bringing up my second. If your all that worryed about a dynamic belay, get ur partner to jump. In my mind, giving a dynamic belay with an ATC is UNSAFE by letting some rope slip. Can anyone really tell the diff between a dynamic belay and a "Static" belay?
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jt512
Mar 21, 2002, 8:24 PM
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Quote:In my mind, giving a dynamic belay with an ATC is UNSAFE by letting some rope slip.
It's not unsafe. The best belayers do it routinely. It's easier to control the amount of rope slippage than it sounds.
Quote:Can anyone really tell the diff between a dynamic belay and a "Static" belay?
Hell, yes. A dynamic belay is essential on steep routes. I didn't used to think so, but was easily convinced after an ambulance ride to the hospital for $20,000 of foot surgery for the fracture-dislocation when my belayer swung me into the wall with a static belay.
Whatever you do, newbies, don't listen to us experienced climbers. It's much more fun to think you know everything and learn your lessons the hard way.
-Jay
[ This Message was edited by: jt512 on 2002-03-21 12:28 ]
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tenn_dawg
Mar 26, 2002, 4:44 AM
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Wow,
Ya ripped my post apart.
Way to do your homework.
Travis
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talons05
Mar 26, 2002, 5:27 AM
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Beyond gravity, my friend, I hope you weren't serious about the whole "get your belayer to jump" comment. This is an all-to-common misconception. Please do not attempt to give a dynamic belay by jumping. You might as well jump off of the ledge...
AW
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beyond_gravity
Mar 26, 2002, 4:25 PM
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i've been told, and read many times from certified people that having your belayer give a little "hop" makes the belay much more dynamic. Of course I never do this cuz i dont care if my belay is "static" or not. On overhanging stuff??? why dont you just get your belayer to leave a little more slack so you dont get short roped?
Belay On,
Jeremy
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jt512
Mar 26, 2002, 5:47 PM
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Talons, what the hell are you talking about?
I have difficulty believing that you really sport lead 5.11-12a and don't understand jumping to give a dynamic belay. A properly timed jump is the most common way to make a belay dynamic in sport climbing. It's really about the only option when using a gri-gri.
-Jay
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tavs
Mar 26, 2002, 5:54 PM
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Agree with jt...I generally don't have to jump to give the dynamic belay/soft catch (my regular climbing partner/boyfriend outweighs me by enough), but my boyfriend often gives that little jump when I take a sport lead fall; sure, I may fall a little further, but the end of the fall is like kind of floating to a stop, no jerks or violent swing. (Of course, he wouldn't do this if there was any chance of me hitting the deck.)
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beyond_gravity
Mar 26, 2002, 6:13 PM
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you mean you people really feel a jerk when you stop? dude, it's allways a nice soft catch for me and my partner doesnt give a dymanic belay.
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hardcoredana
Mar 26, 2002, 7:20 PM
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jt512: Nice posts. I say hotdamn!
Tavs: I'm with you on that one. I weigh significantly less than most of my climbing partners. It's nice not to have to concentrate on giving a dynamic belay.
Beyondgravity: How much does your partner weigh compared to you? It's possible that your partner weighs less, and is therefore automatically giving you a dynamic belay. On the other hand, have you ever asked your partner how static your belay is? If your partner weighs less than you, then you might give some thought to learning how to belay him/her dynamically.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
When I was a newbie, I didn't know what on earth a dynamic belay was, and neither did my climbing partners. Whenever I would take a lead fall, I would slam into the rock and sprain my ankle. I eventually developed a fear of taking lead falls, because whenever I would take one, I would end up with a sprained ankle, and I would have to rest for at least 2 weeks to recover.
Newbies, you should consider yourselves lucky to hear this advice before you experience the consequences for yourself. Listen to jt512, he knows what he's talking about.
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coach
Mar 26, 2002, 8:28 PM
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jt512,
I think Talons comments is in reference to the original thread about using a GriGri in trad, not sport. As a second I think I would wonder about my leaders brain housing if he told me to jump up if he fell, especially at a hanging belay 500 feet off the ground!
Climb On
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coach
Mar 26, 2002, 8:31 PM
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jt512,
Just so I clarify my stand, I would not use a GriGri to belay as a second on a trad route but have had my leader use one for me.
Climb On
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darkside
Mar 26, 2002, 9:47 PM
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jt512 has posted some pearls of wisdom in this thread that should be heeded. I don't use a gri-gri for trad and have only twice had a gri-gri belay on trad from an extremely experienced climber under somewhat exceptional circumstances.
IMHO gri-gri's are not for belaying a leader on either trad or ice. They have a place and perform well but not in the afore-mentioned arenas.
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beyond_gravity
Mar 26, 2002, 10:27 PM
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someone used a grigri on ice, thats where i found mine!
and they do work on ice, but they dont allways lock and can get jamed if your rope doesnt have, or wore off the dry treatment.
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