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rckfreek
Mar 21, 2002, 11:34 PM
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I have been climbing just a while now and am starting to lead. In looking at all the gear i am not sure on the upsides of each of these quick draw styles. If you could tell me your preferance's and why that would be great.
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jt512
Mar 21, 2002, 11:49 PM
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For the hanger end, straight, non-wire gate only. Bent-gate biners are designed for the rope end only. The bent gate can catch on the hanger and unclip. Wire gates has a small, but real, chance to catch on bolt heads and unclip, too.
For the rope end, either a bent-gate, which facilitates clipping, or a wire-gate, which minimizes gate flutter. I strongly recommend buying biners with high open-gate strength. Search the forums for my other posts about this.
-Jay
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estwing
Mar 24, 2002, 2:51 PM
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I am new to sport climbing as well. I have found the the black diamond quick wire draws are nice. One straight gate, one wire gate. The wire gate is as easy to clip as a bent gate.
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kelownaclimber
Mar 24, 2002, 3:18 PM
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Petzl Spirits all the way!!!The keylock facilitates unclipping,which your second will thank you for!They have a high open gate strength and the gate action is second to none!!They are more expensive than some others but its well worth the investment!!!
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radistrad
Mar 24, 2002, 3:48 PM
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For quick draws I also recommend the Petzel Spirits. They are really nice 'biners.
A set of 10 to 12 draws is usually enough to get going.
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beyond_gravity
Mar 24, 2002, 11:36 PM
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Petzl spirts are rip offs! i can get 2 clog draws for the price of one petzl draw! as said above, bent gate is for rope clipping only, not only because it can come unclipped from the bolt, but bolts can also make sharp edges to the biners.
Clip On,
Jeremy
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radistrad
Mar 24, 2002, 11:45 PM
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Hey Guys,
I am a bit confused on how a bent gate 'biner can come uncliped from the bolt.
I Know that the rope can auto-unclip from a bent gate 'biner, but it can also come off of a bolt? How?
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kelownaclimber
Mar 25, 2002, 2:46 AM
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Jeremy,
You get what you pay for.Let's see how those clog biners are holding up in 2 or 3 years.Yes Petzl Spirits are expensive,but good gear is worth any price!
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miagi
Mar 25, 2002, 2:52 AM
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radistad...ill explain this. If you have your gate of the biner facing the bolt plate it can come unclipped. Picture the biner facing the bolt. Rotate the biner "negative" 180 degrees or clockwise. When the biner comes close to the face of the bolt plate it gets caught and opens up. If you face the biner away from the bolt plate then its safe but it still can be unclipped from the bolt nut. Face the biner away from the bolt plate. Rotate it 180 degrees or counterclockwise. It should be safe and not unclip "UNLESS" the litte nut on the bolt catches the gate of the biner and pulls it open. Wire gates are more prone to this because they are flat opposed to the curvature of regular gates.
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treyr
Mar 25, 2002, 12:18 PM
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They are all good if ya place them properly!!!
Trob
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radistrad
Mar 25, 2002, 2:10 PM
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Huh?
I still dont get it.
I've been climbing for a long time, I've clipped tons of bolts and this is the first time I've ever heard of a 'biner auto uncliping from a bolt.
Most of the bolts I've seen have the hanger lower than the bolt its self. Usually the top of the 'biner is near the bolt head, not the gate. Also when climbing the 'biners on a QD, cliped to a bolt is pulled away from the rock, therefor when rotating occurs during climbing is more vertical then horizontal (not much rotation occurs) the 'biner is pulled away from the bolt.
I guess I still dont get it.
When I am climbing this week I am going to give it a try and see what happens.
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miagi
Mar 25, 2002, 5:27 PM
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Someone had a post about wire gates with a picture showing them unlock on the bolt. I try to find it for you.
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radistrad
Mar 25, 2002, 6:57 PM
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Great, I'd like to see that. I just can't visualize it.
Also it started out talking about bent gate biners opening on a bolt, any more info on this, in addition to the wire gate.
Thanks
[ This Message was edited by: radistrad on 2002-03-25 11:40 ]
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jt512
Mar 25, 2002, 7:45 PM
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Quote:I've been climbing for a long time, I've clipped tons of bolts and this is the first time I've ever heard of a 'biner auto uncliping from a bolt.
I've discussed this with long-time climber Paul Kortopates. Paul said he's seen it happen twice. In both cases the carabiner on the bolt was a wiregate. The circumstances were identical, and potentially catastrophic. When the leader fell, the draw below the one that held the fall unclipped. In a sense, that's your most important bolt because on many climbs that bolt is the one that is going to keep you off the deck if your top bolt fails.
-Jay
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radistrad
Mar 25, 2002, 8:05 PM
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Originally this started out as bent gate 'biners coming un cliped from the bolt. Now it has turned into wire gate 'biners coming un cliped from the bolt. That is ok, I think the idea is some what similar.
jt512, correct me if I did not get this straight. The climber climbed up cliped two bolts and fell on the second bolt. The wire gate 'biner came off of the first bolt.
So what I think happened is the first bolt acted as a directional, but the wire gate 'biner must have some how twisted so the gate was pushed open by the bolt hanger and it poped off. Is that correct?
On both occasions your pal has seen this, was it the first bolt on the route where the wire gate 'biner poped off?
Thanks for helping me with this, like I said I've cliped 100's of bolts and never had a problem like this. So I really want to understand what is going on.
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miagi
Mar 25, 2002, 8:51 PM
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Hey JT, do you remember the post that had a link to a picture that showed the process by which a QD unclipped itself from the nut on the bolt? I remember both you and me posted in it and im trying to find it with no luck. It would help radistad visualize this.
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radistrad
Mar 25, 2002, 9:38 PM
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Yeah, I need the help.
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dustinap
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Mar 25, 2002, 9:45 PM
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here is the link.
http://www.climerware.com/unclip.shtml
BTW, I just don't see how a straight wire gate can unclip any easier then a straight traditional gate. I can see how a bent gate could uncleap easier. I'm sure if there was a MAJOR issue with unclipping, Black Diamond would NOT sell a QD with 2 neutrino carabiners on a dogbone.
Someone please explain indepth how a straight traditional gate differs from a straight bent gate with how it'd unclip from a bolt hanger? thanks.
As a note, any carabiner that isn't locking cna come unclipped from a bolt.
[ This Message was edited by: dustinap on 2002-03-25 13:46 ]
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radistrad
Mar 25, 2002, 9:56 PM
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Ok, so it un clips like I thought.
Hmmm, very interesting. Thanks guys
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jt512
Mar 25, 2002, 10:33 PM
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Quote:I just don't see how a straight wire gate can unclip any easier then a straight traditional gate.
I imagine that the conventional gate, being round, would tend to slide off the bolt head.
-Jay
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dustinap
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Mar 25, 2002, 10:45 PM
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My BD wire gates are rounded. Traditional gates are more rounded, but still....
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gumby
Mar 25, 2002, 10:51 PM
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Thanks for that link guys! Found some really useful ideas there.
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jt512
Mar 25, 2002, 10:55 PM
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Quote:My BD wire gates are rounded. Traditional gates are more rounded, but still....
But the diameter of the wire is less than the depth (height?) of the bolt head, so it can catch on it more easily. The diameter of the conventional gate is greater than the depth of the bolt head, so it is more likely to roll off than to catch.
-Jay
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joemor
Mar 26, 2002, 4:34 AM
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the other thing to think of is that wire gates are bad for PORTABLE bolt hangers, as they are thin enough to slip off the bolt hanger and all, where as normal gates are wide enough that the hanger can only be removed by first taking off the biner
joe
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floof
Mar 26, 2002, 7:27 AM
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Thanks for the link Dustin. Chris Harmston has the some of the best climbing gear techinique on the web.
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