|
|
|
|
qwimjim
Apr 20, 2011, 4:43 AM
Post #1 of 24
(9286 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Apr 4, 2011
Posts: 17
|
I live in a city of 1.5 million people (3.5 million metro pop), we already have two major climbing gyms that are thriving and quite busy on most weeknights, even too busy. These two gyms have the advantage of being in and near the city center, about a 10 minute walk from the subway, relatively close to the cities large student population. I live in the suburbs on one side of the city and it's a 30 minute drive to get to the gym under ideal conditions, 40-45 minutes to the other one. If there's traffic those times can increase considerably. The area where I'm looking into building the gym would have around 300,000 people within a 10 mile radius, with the nearest other gym 15 miles away.
Can a climbing gym work in the suburbs? Climbing demographics seem to lean towards the 20-35 age group where being near the city center, near schools, near public transportation, offers a distinct advantage. But in the suburbs, can a gym survive by creating a climbing community? Getting kids and schools into climbing early on, have passionate teen climbers, and capture all those kids who still live at home but commute to college, and finally all the 30 somethings who decide to move out of the city and into the suburbs who want to keep climbing or keep active and aren't ready to succumb to joining a tennis/squash club? :) Obviously a gym in the suburbs would have to place a large focus on gettings kids involved, hosting birthday parties, etc..
If you know of any gyms that sound like what I'm describing that exist or have existed, that are doing well or went under, please let me know!
|
|
|
|
|
jomagam
Apr 20, 2011, 5:24 AM
Post #2 of 24
(9265 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Nov 10, 2008
Posts: 364
|
Why not. Denver for example has no big gyms in the downtown area.
|
|
|
|
|
gosharks
Apr 20, 2011, 6:59 AM
Post #3 of 24
(9251 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Sep 7, 2004
Posts: 268
|
There are at least 7 gyms in the San Francisco Bay Area. At least half of them are in the "suburb."
|
|
|
|
|
granite_grrl
Apr 20, 2011, 1:58 PM
Post #4 of 24
(9212 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Oct 25, 2002
Posts: 15084
|
Depends on the are you're looking at and depends on how big you want to make the gym.
I have found that university kids really love climbing gyms, proximity to a school will really boost your numbers. I would also say that you probably don't want to over extend on the size. If you don't have as many people available in the area then maybe a smaller, bouldering oriented gym would be more appropriate.
No reason a gym can't work in the suburbs, but you need to look at the demographics first.
|
|
|
|
|
styndall
Apr 20, 2011, 3:08 PM
Post #5 of 24
(9187 views)
Shortcut
Registered: May 29, 2002
Posts: 2741
|
Atlanta's gyms are mostly suburban, or at least outside the city center, and they seem to do well enough.
|
|
|
|
|
qwimjim
Apr 20, 2011, 4:14 PM
Post #6 of 24
(9160 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Apr 4, 2011
Posts: 17
|
Well that's encouraging, I just look at the gym I go to near the city center and it's mostly 20-30 year olds, a large percentage of which are students. No kids, no teens, and not a lot of 30+. The area I'm looking is almost entirely detached homes, like most suburbs it is where people move to start families. Upper middle class and according to the most recent census approximately 20% <15, 12% 15 to 24, 27% 25 to 44, 25% 45 to 64, and 16% 65+. Median age is 40.
I guess I just don't see a lot of 30-45 year olds at the climbing gym, and I'm wondering if that is the nature of the sport.. that people lose interest at a certain age, find it too physically demanding at a certain age, feel too old to take it up at a certain age.. or just a matter of it being that most of these people have moved to the suburbs, time is scarce and they can't be bothered driving a half hour to go to the gym downtown but would be keen if a facility existed near their home? What about kids and teens, do they tend to get passionate about climbing between the ages of say 10-17 like they can with basketball, soccer, hockey, etc? I know kids love climbing, but it's one thing to do it every now and then, it's another to want to do it every week. Does the novelty wear off?
|
|
|
|
|
altelis
Apr 20, 2011, 6:43 PM
Post #7 of 24
(9125 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Nov 10, 2004
Posts: 2168
|
FWIW the gyms in suburban DC make a fair amount of money off of kid birthday parties and their youth climbing teams (ie middle & high school kids)
|
|
|
|
|
qwimjim
Apr 21, 2011, 3:58 AM
Post #8 of 24
(9070 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Apr 4, 2011
Posts: 17
|
altelis wrote: FWIW the gyms in suburban DC make a fair amount of money off of kid birthday parties and their youth climbing teams (ie middle & high school kids)
Yeah I imagine birthday parties will need to be a big focus, as well as getting local schools involved. The thing with kids is until they're 14 they can't belay each other, so there's less incentive for them to come on their own with their friends like adults would. They can't just come and do their own thing..
|
|
|
|
|
guangzhou
Apr 21, 2011, 4:12 AM
Post #9 of 24
(9065 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Sep 27, 2004
Posts: 3389
|
qwimjim wrote: altelis wrote: FWIW the gyms in suburban DC make a fair amount of money off of kid birthday parties and their youth climbing teams (ie middle & high school kids) Yeah I imagine birthday parties will need to be a big focus, as well as getting local schools involved. The thing with kids is until they're 14 they can't belay each other, so there's less incentive for them to come on their own with their friends like adults would. They can't just come and do their own thing..
Why until they are 14?
|
|
|
|
|
qwimjim
Apr 21, 2011, 5:01 AM
Post #10 of 24
(9049 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Apr 4, 2011
Posts: 17
|
guangzhou wrote: qwimjim wrote: altelis wrote: FWIW the gyms in suburban DC make a fair amount of money off of kid birthday parties and their youth climbing teams (ie middle & high school kids) Yeah I imagine birthday parties will need to be a big focus, as well as getting local schools involved. The thing with kids is until they're 14 they can't belay each other, so there's less incentive for them to come on their own with their friends like adults would. They can't just come and do their own thing.. Why until they are 14?
That's the age requirement at the gyms in my area, I assume it's an insurance thing. Is that not a standard age requirement? Even if it were possible to have kids belay at a younger age, I have 11 year old nephews, I wouldn't want them belaying anyone unsupervised. Kids often have poor focus, and don't always have a firm grasp on consequence.
|
|
|
|
|
guangzhou
Apr 21, 2011, 5:13 AM
Post #11 of 24
(9043 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Sep 27, 2004
Posts: 3389
|
qwimjim wrote: guangzhou wrote: qwimjim wrote: altelis wrote: FWIW the gyms in suburban DC make a fair amount of money off of kid birthday parties and their youth climbing teams (ie middle & high school kids) Yeah I imagine birthday parties will need to be a big focus, as well as getting local schools involved. The thing with kids is until they're 14 they can't belay each other, so there's less incentive for them to come on their own with their friends like adults would. They can't just come and do their own thing.. Why until they are 14? That's the age requirement at the gyms in my area, I assume it's an insurance thing. Is that not a standard age requirement? Even if it were possible to have kids belay at a younger age, I have 11 year old nephews, I wouldn't want them belaying anyone unsupervised. Kids often have poor focus, and don't always have a firm grasp on consequence.
Sounds like your area. I've seen kids younger than 14 belay in gyms around the U.S. and at the cliffs.
Kids not having good focus, I think you should say some kids. Teach kids good belay technique.
|
|
|
|
|
Toast_in_the_Machine
Apr 21, 2011, 11:40 AM
Post #12 of 24
(9015 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Sep 12, 2008
Posts: 5208
|
40 year old tend to be the parent demographic with very few of them starting climbing. My personal observation is that one in about thirty will try with the vast majority not even belay their kid, choosing instead to either watch or wander off.
Trying to live off of 40 year old climbers doesn't seem to me like a good business model. It is a small demographic I'm in.
|
|
|
|
|
qwimjim
Apr 21, 2011, 1:21 PM
Post #13 of 24
(8996 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Apr 4, 2011
Posts: 17
|
guangzhou wrote: qwimjim wrote: guangzhou wrote: qwimjim wrote: altelis wrote: FWIW the gyms in suburban DC make a fair amount of money off of kid birthday parties and their youth climbing teams (ie middle & high school kids) Yeah I imagine birthday parties will need to be a big focus, as well as getting local schools involved. The thing with kids is until they're 14 they can't belay each other, so there's less incentive for them to come on their own with their friends like adults would. They can't just come and do their own thing.. Why until they are 14? That's the age requirement at the gyms in my area, I assume it's an insurance thing. Is that not a standard age requirement? Even if it were possible to have kids belay at a younger age, I have 11 year old nephews, I wouldn't want them belaying anyone unsupervised. Kids often have poor focus, and don't always have a firm grasp on consequence. Sounds like your area. I've seen kids younger than 14 belay in gyms around the U.S. and at the cliffs. Kids not having good focus, I think you should say some kids. Teach kids good belay technique.
What would you say is the minimum age in your area?
|
|
|
|
|
qwimjim
Apr 21, 2011, 1:28 PM
Post #14 of 24
(8993 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Apr 4, 2011
Posts: 17
|
Toast_in_the_Machine wrote: 40 year old tend to be the parent demographic with very few of them starting climbing. My personal observation is that one in about thirty will try with the vast majority not even belay their kid, choosing instead to either watch or wander off. Trying to live off of 40 year old climbers doesn't seem to me like a good business model. It is a small demographic I'm in.
No I doubt we would see many 40 year old climbers, the median age is 40 in our area, but that's pretty much the median age in any city, state, or for the whole country for that matter. We'd be targeting the kids and teens in the area to get them passionate about climbing at an early age, the young adults who live at home while commuting to school and work, and then the 20 and 30 somethings that stay or move back to the area to settle down and raise a family but wish to remain active or even get into climbing for the first time. A basic suburban demographic. I know you can fill a gym up with 20 to 30 year olds quite easily if you have a lot of them in your area, I just don't know how realistic it is to envision a gym filled with 13-18 year olds climbing on their own after school everyday instead of going home to watch television and play on facebook.
(This post was edited by qwimjim on Apr 21, 2011, 1:28 PM)
|
|
|
|
|
tower_climber
Apr 22, 2011, 6:43 AM
Post #15 of 24
(8893 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Aug 25, 2010
Posts: 157
|
qwimjim wrote: That's the age requirement at the gyms in my area, I assume it's an insurance thing. Is that not a standard age requirement? Even if it were possible to have kids belay at a younger age, I have 11 year old nephews, I wouldn't want them belaying anyone unsupervised. Kids often have poor focus, and don't always have a firm grasp on consequence.
It does indeed have to do with insurance requirements. At least according to the gym owners I've spoken with.
Solution: autobelays. Kids in the gyms I climb at come in and run laps on the autobelays while their parents read or wander around. Some parents decide to take a belaying class after they watch their kids having fun on the autobelays and hearing them complain about being limited on what routes they can climb.
|
|
|
|
|
Kstenson
Apr 22, 2011, 7:04 AM
Post #16 of 24
(8890 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Jan 7, 2011
Posts: 78
|
In theory a suburb location is ideal for an indoor gym where there isn't usually the alternative of outdoor climbing
(This post was edited by Kstenson on Apr 22, 2011, 8:45 AM)
|
|
|
|
|
qwimjim
Apr 22, 2011, 2:38 PM
Post #17 of 24
(8862 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Apr 4, 2011
Posts: 17
|
tower_climber wrote: qwimjim wrote: That's the age requirement at the gyms in my area, I assume it's an insurance thing. Is that not a standard age requirement? Even if it were possible to have kids belay at a younger age, I have 11 year old nephews, I wouldn't want them belaying anyone unsupervised. Kids often have poor focus, and don't always have a firm grasp on consequence. It does indeed have to do with insurance requirements. At least according to the gym owners I've spoken with. Solution: autobelays. Kids in the gyms I climb at come in and run laps on the autobelays while their parents read or wander around. Some parents decide to take a belaying class after they watch their kids having fun on the autobelays and hearing them complain about being limited on what routes they can climb.
I've only tried autobelays once, they seem like a great investment for a kids area so you don't need to have 3-4 for belayers working a birthday party. But the only times I've seen them is on 25 foot kids walls. Anyone know why gyms don't install them on 35-40 foot walls? There's lots of times I'll go to the gym when none of my friends are available and just boulder.. but if there was an autobelay on a proper part of the wall, with some decent routes i would totally use it. Even if it was just lapping 5.9's..
|
|
|
|
|
treemonkey
Apr 22, 2011, 3:00 PM
Post #18 of 24
(8855 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Nov 27, 2006
Posts: 76
|
I have been to several gyms with auto-belays in the Main climbing area, Bolder Rock Club is a example you should look at. They have a strong youth presence because the have a good after school program.
as for belaying Most gym a low people under the registered age if they are in a program such as a team or class.
You should check out routesetter.com and ask some of these questions there, because there are alot of people that have been in the industry for a long time.
(This post was edited by treemonkey on Apr 22, 2011, 3:02 PM)
|
|
|
|
|
qwimjim
Apr 22, 2011, 3:00 PM
Post #19 of 24
(8852 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Apr 4, 2011
Posts: 17
|
Kstenson wrote: In theory a suburb location is ideal for an indoor gym where there isn't usually the alternative of outdoor climbing
My question of whether a suburban location can work or not is mostly to do with age demographics and population density as there are no gyms in the suburbs in my city but there are two successful gyms running in or near the city center where there are more young adults, more students, and more public transportation. In either case, the nearest outdoor crag is over an hours drive away.
|
|
|
|
|
shockabuku
Apr 22, 2011, 3:30 PM
Post #20 of 24
(8842 views)
Shortcut
Registered: May 20, 2006
Posts: 4868
|
If you don't allow some mechanism for under 14 to belay you're not going to have much a youth program. At about that age they start losing focus on physical activities and start gravitating toward social activities as the focus of their lives. If you don't have them hooked by then, they'll probably only be in the birthday party or once/twice per year crowd. And you won't get them hooked unless you make them competent at the sport, which includes belaying.
My experience in gyms is that the youth crowd is underrepresented except those who participate in some type of organized club. Those kids need to be able to belay each other. I don't think it's financially feasible otherwise.
|
|
|
|
|
rschap
Apr 28, 2011, 12:55 AM
Post #21 of 24
(8661 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Sep 30, 2005
Posts: 592
|
When I lived in LA I drove 20 minutes to get to the gym because it was 1 1/2hrs to the closest real rock without traffic. If you get the word out people will travel from other areas as long as you’re the only game close to them and you’re not a dick. Emphasis on you not being a dick, I drove 10 minutes farther to go to the gym I went to because the other owner was a dick. When I moved here I built a wall in my garage because the gym owner was a dick. Just something to keep in mind. Birthday parties and summer camps are big money makers in the suburbs. Gyms in big climbing areas can make it without b-day parties but not so much in other places.
|
|
|
|
|
gosharks
Apr 28, 2011, 1:45 AM
Post #22 of 24
(8648 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Sep 7, 2004
Posts: 268
|
qwimjim wrote: My question of whether a suburban location can work or not is mostly to do with age demographics and population density as there are no gyms in the suburbs in my city but there are two successful gyms running in or near the city center where there are more young adults, more students, and more public transportation. In either case, the nearest outdoor crag is over an hours drive away.
(This post was edited by gosharks on Apr 28, 2011, 1:45 AM)
|
|
|
|
|
Landale
Apr 28, 2011, 7:02 PM
Post #23 of 24
(8537 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Dec 11, 2009
Posts: 17
|
Rscap,
I'm not being sarcastic or glib in asking this, but since I'm attempting to open a facility of my own, I just wanted to know what the other owners did to be a "dick". I do not wish to treat customers in that way. THanks! Greg
|
|
|
|
|
rschap
Apr 30, 2011, 6:10 AM
Post #24 of 24
(8493 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Sep 30, 2005
Posts: 592
|
Ray Kroc, the guy that made McDonalds huge said “take care of the people and the business will take care of its self”. Of course they forgot to apply this to the way they treat their employees but that’s beside the point. Build a community and take care of your employees the best you can, a few of them will go above and beyond don’t take advantage of them. I think that’s the best advice I’ve got.
|
|
|
|
|
|
