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flamer
Jan 28, 2006, 2:40 PM
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In reply to: Being from Chicago I think we're at a definite disadvantage (even though that's not the best style).
First time I did a diamond route there was a party from Kansas on the route behind us....they had driven all the way there then hiked in and started climbing. Thye were hurting but they pulled it off.
Also fixing and firing is far from bad style....in fact I think it's better style than hauling. Keep in mind the Dunn-westbay is probably the trade Aid route on the Diamond. All the belay's are fixed(supposedly bolted in the last few years) and retreat (from the face) is straight forward.....
Give'r hell boys!
josh
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sspssp
Jan 28, 2006, 6:17 PM
Post #27 of 116
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In reply to: In reply to: ...That is a hell of a long way to drag all that gear just to find out you can't move fast enough (which is what does most big wall beginners in). Good luck, but you might consider getting your system well dialed in a less commiting environment. okay, let me clarify. my question wasn't about hauling -or- shortfixing as i have a firm grasp of both techniques. my question was specificlly about hauling -while- short fixing.... i know most of our short-fixing and leading in blocks discusions around here have been more in the context of climbing light and fast or in a push, i'd like to elaborate on some of these techniques as applied to a more heavy handed wall climb. this is going to be allot of fun, in that "i have a weird idea of fun" kinda way :twisted:
I didn't take you for a complete novice, but if you are hauling and shortfixing at the same time for the first time... I would guess you don't have everything dialed. Sounds like you have a pretty firm grasp of how it works and its not something that can't be figured out... But it sure is easy to lose a lot of time when experimenting with something new[ish]...And if you are prepared for an ass-whumping with or without a successful summit, that's the attitude.
Hiking/hauling a ledge in is a lot of work compared with leaving it at home, but I would think that since weather is the biggest wildcard, it would be worth having for the margin of safety/comfort it would give.
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aspiringmonkey
Jan 28, 2006, 7:10 PM
Post #28 of 116
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I dont get why people look down on fixing and firing either. I sort of understand why siege climbing when putting up a new wall is considered a poor practice. This takes away the out at sea kind of adventure with no certainty of being able to top out. At this point with how lavish topos have gotten the top is only a matter of time and water. Why has this negative image of siege climbing rubbed off on modern fixing and firing of classic routes?? Seems way less impactful to a trade route than hauling and sleeping on it.
Blakeb
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dangle
Jan 29, 2006, 12:29 AM
Post #29 of 116
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Perspiring Monkey,
I assume your negativity regarding seige climbing applies to those lavishly topoed routes, because I still get plenty of adventure seiging new ones after soaking in the hot tub the night before instead of spending 15 hours on a dark cold lumpy ledge.
Euro,
on a wall THAT steep leaving most of the hauling for the slave is probably OK but elsewhere what if it gets stuck.....?
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euroford
Jan 30, 2006, 4:33 PM
Post #30 of 116
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In reply to: Euro, on a wall THAT steep leaving most of the hauling for the slave is probably OK but elsewhere what if it gets stuck.....?
damn good point regarding that tactic!
Steve and i had lunch saturday and talked our strategy over again, comming to the conclusion that we will haul and portaledge. even if we fixed the first 3 pitches and then fired, ascending even by partially fixed pitches the entire climb in a day just sounds like a bit much to bight off.
i'd rather deal with the loads and the hauling, and have the extra security afforded by being able to have solid bivys on the wall. besides, if we bivy at all, even in a fix and fire situation we'll still have to haul.
the route seams to logically break itself up into 3 blocks: 1-3 from broadway to the top of the pillar with Steve leading as he's the stronger free climber. 4-7 the crux pitches with aiding up to C3, this will be the marathon day that will either make or break the climb. i'll likely be leading it all and this is where we'll employ speed tactics to help get this over with ASAP. pitches 8-10, moderate C1 aid and some easy free climbing to the topout.
so i think logically the best thing at our experience level to do will be to plan for 1 approach and 3 climbing days and then do our damn hardest to improve on it.
Ron, you definitly right about the hauling situation with the short fixing. i think we'll only apply this tactic to our 'crux' day on the C3 climbing. this part of the route appears to be absolutly shear to overhanging with ideal hauling conditions. at the begining and ends of the route we might have more issues.
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krusher4
Jan 30, 2006, 5:40 PM
Post #32 of 116
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As for as the Rangers enforcing bivies, I don't think so. Are you going to camp up there? If so just reserve the tent site the the entire time you'll be on the wall.
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euroford
Jan 30, 2006, 7:10 PM
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'base camp' will be a regular site in the Moraine Park campground, we already have a prime spot scouted out from the last couple of years.
i don't exacly know the arangments of a bivy on the diamond, but surly they have some way to classify the permit as i know we arn't the only ones to dream up a plan like this. we'll find out when we hit up the backcountry office for our Gash bivy permit at the start of our trip.
approach day thoughts:
i havn't dug out my real map yet (WTF -did- i do with it??!!?) but from looking at the .pdf on RMNP's website our approach looks maybe a bit shorter than the Gash approach we are already familier with. though i imagine it has to have a bit more elevation gain. that being said, we'll be well aclamatized by this time, and i'm starting to feel a little bit more posative about approach day.
as steve said, we'll be in damn good shape by that time. i'm now jogging 4.4 miles a day and walking an additional 4.4 miles a day. twice a day the dog and i jog out 2.2 miles from the house and then walk back. pretty soon i'll start turning around and jogging on the way home as well, hopefully in the next month i'll be starting to push out the turnaround point and will hopefully be jogging 10 miles a day. this is in addition spending more than half of my work days on a huge jobsite lugging around a 30lb backpack full of gear covering at least 4 miles and allot of stairs. of course also the near daily hangboard regimen and we'll soon get some spring cragging fever goind on as well.
does anybody have distance/elevation gain information handy for the gash approach as well as to the chasm view raps? i know i can dig up the info myself, i just have no idea where in the pit of my study that damn map is at and the comparative info will be helpfull.
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reg
Jan 30, 2006, 7:21 PM
Post #34 of 116
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Registered: Nov 10, 2004
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eurcford worte: "also tackle the diamond, its an alpine wall, "
i don't know much about aid - the diamond scares the hell out of me but i do know that the diamond is the highest (altitude) alpine wall in north america.
have fun!
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pt
Jan 31, 2006, 12:54 AM
Post #35 of 116
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Registered: May 29, 2003
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The Gash is around 5.2 miles and 2400 vertical.
Chasm View is 6.2 miles and 4100 vertical. Chasm view altitude is 13500, you're almost all the up the damn mountain when you get there!
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euroford
Jan 31, 2006, 2:30 AM
Post #36 of 116
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In reply to: The Gash is around 5.2 miles and 2400 vertical. Chasm View is 6.2 miles and 4100 vertical. Chasm view altitude is 13500, you're almost all the up the damn mountain when you get there!
thanks, er, i guess :shock:
i had a gut feeling that my breif look at the low-res map was giving me a false impression. we'll manage though. we had quite a kit with us last year for the gash hike, and really, it wasn't bad.
(selective memory rules!)
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dangle
Feb 1, 2006, 8:35 PM
Post #37 of 116
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Its counterintuitive but I strongly recommend the Chasm rap approach.
Plus, you can be in top shape but still need aclimization. Look at the dif in elevation between Moraine Park (a good FIRST night) and the Boulderfield.
Bet the wall could be lots of fun without a splitting headache. What about splitting your loads, camping at the Boulderfield a night, then returning with climbing gear?
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euroford
Feb 1, 2006, 9:35 PM
Post #38 of 116
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In reply to: Its counterintuitive but I strongly recommend the Chasm rap approach. Plus, you can be in top shape but still need aclimization. Look at the dif in elevation between Moraine Park (a good FIRST night) and the Boulderfield. Bet the wall could be lots of fun without a splitting headache. What about splitting your loads, camping at the Boulderfield a night, then returning with climbing gear?
i'm hopeing we'll be in pretty decent shape. the current plan leadin up to the diamond is as follows:
D1F drive chicago-boulder
D2S climb 1st flatiron - crash in boulder
D3S climb anaconda at lumpy - crash at RMNP
D4M climb at lumpy - hike into gash - bivy
D5T climb sharkstooth - bivy at base of petit
D6W climb petit - return to estes
D7T rest day - pack for diamond
D8F approach - bivy on broadway
D9S bivy top of pitch 3
D10S bivy top of pitch pitch 7
D11M top out - return to estes
well shit, now that i typed that all out, i could easily insert a carry day between the current day 7 and 8. we are taking a full two weeks off of work, so we have plenty of slack at the end of the trip. it might also be a good idea to insert another day before the gash. maybe go do Kors Flake which we've wanted to, but havn't made time for.
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dangle
Feb 1, 2006, 10:38 PM
Post #39 of 116
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How about ;
D7T(a) pack for Diamond at Long's campground. Spend night THERE (higher)
D7F(b) pack (ride?) to Boulderfield. Sleep THERE
D8S Easy day (further aclimization). Move to Broadway, maybe get your foot in the door before the 2:57PM storm. Easily asleep by dark. Chomping at the bit at 4:30 AM.
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justsendingits
Feb 3, 2006, 7:17 AM
Post #40 of 116
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Registered: Dec 29, 2001
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hmmmmm...
myself, I would blow off the flat irons, Lumpy all that shit and just go for it. You can aclimate by doing multiple loads, which you might have to do anyway if you are going to take a double up there. .
You are going to lose hours/days of climbing due to afternoon storms on the Diamond, I have bivyed 11 nights on broadway over the years and it rained/snowed/hailed 10 of those times. Mostly in the afternoon, but you still get shut down(for free climbing) because the cracks can stay wet all day on some routes.
Plus if the weather is good and you guy's climb well you get to do multiple routes on the diamond.
I would add more days for weather and getting your ass handed to you on as platter what with the altitude thing. I am a flatlander plough boy my own damn self. That car to car thing is extra hard for us but it's a cake walk for those Este's boys.
I have done the Diamond straight out of the car after driving all night from STL. Mo. and trust me, you don't want to do that!
I would do two loads up to chasam, and set up camp on broadwy for a fukkin week. For real, no porta ledge, there is enough room for 3 in the overhang on broadway, and one or two more slanting bivys that are protected a little up and left of the big overhang.
And there are a number of flat spaces on broadway scatered around but unprotected.
I highly recomend lisining to Pink Floyd's Wish you were here album on headphones while laying in your bag looking up at the diamond.
Also, You just got the go ahead from the FA of P.S. A well respected asnd legendary climber. There won't be THAT much traffic. I think one third of the climbers that make it to broadway bail anyway. I would hop on that or whatever you want. And if anybody gives you any shit tell them piton ron said there was gold up here and tell em to bugger off!
There are plenty of routes for other party's to chose from anyway I would fix for sure, I never climb on the Diamonde after 1:pm unless I have to. Save all that learning to haul for the Valley. Grade 6's
That way you and your psrtner can refine your big wall climbing on the diamond and get that dialed. You guy's have climbed a lot together thats good, I would short fix, work on that, if you don't belay with a device and just throw some rope out, make sure you don't give yourself too much slack, 20-30 ft is plenty, if you get to the end just wait for your partner to put you on again.
Also communication can be a problem with the long pitches and the wind.
I don;t yell anything until all ropes are fixed when I haul.
Real important to carry a topo with both of you at all times so you know where to rap to when the storm comes.
You can rap from most places on the diamond now a days.
I mean shit, your going all the way out there to do the hotest alpine wall in the lower 48, I would go straight at it, and leave all the naysayer's in my wake.
But that's just me, The free blast on el cap was my second multi pitch ever. Anyway your call.
PS. If you do two loads, the ranger trail is an option. Steep!
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justsendingits
Feb 3, 2006, 11:49 PM
Post #41 of 116
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Forgot to warn you about the Marmets up there, they ate my hat, a glove, and the hip belt to may pack.
But they are good eatin ifin you know how to cook em right!
Also, shlepping that much gear you might want to think about Leki poles.
here is that thread on So. ILL. I was telling you about, my username is Darnell.
Drive fast take chances!!
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justsendingits
Feb 3, 2006, 11:50 PM
Post #42 of 116
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Registered: Dec 29, 2001
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oops....
http://www.supertopo.com/climbing/thread.html?topic_id=146033&f=0&b=0
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maldaly
Feb 4, 2006, 12:23 AM
Post #43 of 116
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I like your schedule. I'd recommend the linkup of the Petit Grepon to Sharkstooth. It's one of the besxt days I've ever had in the mountains. Plan to be at the base of the Grepon at first light. Climb it (You'll be on the summit by 9:30), then do the rappel to the gully. climb up to the notch (one 10' boulder problem), then walk over to the start of the NE ridge of Sharkstooth. Four pitches later and your're on the top. It's great and will give you an extra day for aan ascent of the Red Wall or the Flying Buttress.
Mal
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euroford
Feb 4, 2006, 12:48 AM
Post #44 of 116
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Rich, man, thanks so much for all the good info! i'm about to get start drinking beer with steve, we'll (yeah, duh, what else?) be talking about this stuff and every bit of info we get helps fine tune our plans. which of course, could get totally changed, but hey thats climbin eh.
Mal, your right on about aiming for the linkup. we'll talk it over tonight but i guess we should change around our plans to do the petit first and the sharkstooth second thus leaving that option open.
havin taken a bit of a better look at our schedule, i'm glad to see we have a good many chances to compress the schedule if things go well, and survive some weather days if they don't. i'm also starting to get some ideas about other things to add to the roster in the 'things go well' plan. :twisted:
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alpinestylist
Feb 7, 2006, 8:44 PM
Post #45 of 116
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Registered: Feb 22, 2002
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The sharkstooth/petit enchainement will be a BIatch with bivi gear. i dont know your relative level of fitness but the Petit/Sharkstooth, in that order, is easily pulled off as a car to car day, descent from Petit is relatively close to start of Sharkstooth. you only need one rope
Have fun on Diamond, at chasm lake last week, lloooked...COOOOLLLLLD
Cheers
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euroford
Feb 7, 2006, 11:01 PM
Post #46 of 116
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yeah i've thought about that, and if we wanted to i think we probobly -could- pull it off car to car, becouse our fitness levels are pretty high. However, the petit/sharkstooth outing is part of our acclimitization strategy and we are doing it fairly early in the trip, so i think the bivy will be good for us in that way, i would hate to kill ourselves doing it car to car and feel like shit for three days afterwords....
we arn't considering the approach/bivy day a real loss becouse we are going to do a speed climb up chrome plated blablabla in the morning. This is actually what we did last year and found the route to be a fun moderate, we decieded it would be even more fun if we took a tiny rack, linked it together with a 70m and did it in under an hour.
the problem of course is what to do with the bivy gear? if we left it at the base of the petit we would be stuck with a gnarly descent after getting off the sharkstooth, when otherwise we could glissade down the gash and be back to the car in a bit over an hour.
i guess we'll just have to go minimal on the bivy gear and make the second carry it up and over the petit, fortunatly we can leave it on the ground for the sharkstooth. we planned to use a trail line/lead line for two rope raps so this does leave us the option of hauling it if need be. kind of cumbersome but i think we can (or have to) deal with it.
wooo hooo!!! only like 6 months to go..... :shock:
oh well, practice aiding at the crags this weekend :D
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alpinestylist
Feb 8, 2006, 4:43 AM
Post #47 of 116
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Registered: Feb 22, 2002
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nix sharkstooth...add the saber, stay in cirque with bivi gear.
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euroford
Feb 9, 2006, 11:04 PM
Post #48 of 116
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In reply to: nix sharkstooth...add the saber, stay in cirque with bivi gear.
no way man, i gotta climb that thing!!
i dunno why, i just havn't generated a real hard-on for the saber. the tooth and the petit are just the kind of towers that i -got- to climb, the saber hasn't ever really done anything for me. but to link all three would be bitchin!
actually, we got 1 pitch below the top of the saber last year by accident. i didn't realize there was a low 5th class route up the back of it and we ended way up there just trying to stay off of the ice'd up gash. long story, major clusterfrig. LOL
one of those, 'you shoulda been there' moments.
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mistymountainhop
Feb 10, 2006, 12:03 AM
Post #49 of 116
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Registered: Oct 14, 2003
Posts: 410
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How's this for a in-a-day linkup Proj.
1) Love Route on Hallets 90% free solo, a short crux section roped.
2) Run down backside of hallets through Chaos Canyon to Skypond, then South Face of Petit Grepon via waiting partner
3) Get the hell of the Petit and run back to Glacier Gorge then SpearHead to either solo North Ridge or (mostly) solo Sykes Syckle.
Sound like one b-tch of an endurance challenge?
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climbhigher
Feb 10, 2006, 10:42 AM
Post #50 of 116
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Registered: Dec 6, 2002
Posts: 224
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Boulderclimbing.com has the beta for DunnWestbay. My partner wrote it up. A very doable route in a day. If you really want to go for it, combine The original Diagonal route on the lower wall.
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