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euroford
Feb 4, 2006, 12:56 AM
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In reply to: In reply to: And you might want to leave alcohol behind because at that altitude it will dehydrate you bad and make you move slow the next day. Huh.. No alcohol ?? has that ever been done before? :shock: An alcohol free ascent could be a milestone you know, like the first O2 free ascent of Everest ?
i don't really have the kinda balls necessary to subject myself to wall climbing without knowing i have beverages at the end of the day! hammerless is enough style points for me!
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justsendingits
Feb 4, 2006, 1:47 AM
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MRE's weigh to much and are a mess.
I on't tke a stove on a wall unless it is winter, then I take 2.
I love the "ultimate meal powder" word around the campfire is that it needs to be consumed within 15 min. of mixing. So don't pre mix for the wall.
http://www.betterlife.com/prod_home_page.asp?prod_id=9025
KimGraves has it right with the tastybites, ummmm, yummmy!
I get most of my food for the wall from trader joe's or whole paycheck.
Lot's of Trail mix.
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altelis
Feb 4, 2006, 2:07 AM
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skinner---------
trophy!
:lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:
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iamthewallress
Feb 4, 2006, 2:53 AM
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A few more things to consider...
1. Test out any foods that you bring before you bring them. You'd think I'd learn this one, but I always end up seeing some enticing item at Trader Joe's when stocking up, and it almost always is a complete disaster.
2. If it might give you the runs on terra firma, it will almost for sure do us up there.
3. A little variety in the food bag is a good thing in case one thing unexpectedly makes you nautious when you're overworked and at altitude.
4. A little can of Starbuck's Double shots will keeps things on schedule in the morning and will help get that last pitch or two lead after dark.
5. If you bring Tasty Bites (which I fully endorse!), bring the least spicey ones and be sure to test drive it. (See #1 and #2). I recommend the Jodphur Lentils, Jaipur Veggies, and Peas Paneer.
6. Remember that you get to drink a ton of water that you don't need to haul on the day that you start and on the day that you finish, so you don't always need to consider a full ration for those days.
7. Getting a little bit thirsty is part of the fun. :wink:
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holdplease2
Feb 4, 2006, 4:24 AM
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Careful with those tuna packets. I don't think they are as durable as the tasty bit bats.
My partner on a recent wall brought some tuna in a bag., one ruptured.
Her food was covered in tuna juice eventually maggots. These she kept flicking off of her food, and they kept drifting onto me, because I had the bottom bunk. They were in my sleeping bag, in the grooves of my sleeping pad, and eventually in my own food bag.
Tuna bags. Not my favorite thing.
Tuna is nasty, anyway. Go vegetarian.
-Kate.
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kayo
Feb 4, 2006, 4:36 AM
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I'm sure most people know this, but alcohol is a diuretic and will, in addition to the obvious weight added from the actual booze, cause a need for you to bring more water with you than you would need otherwise. Caffeine will also have the same unfortunate effect.
Personally I don't drink coffee/tea or booze so the idea of bringing either on a trip where water has to be carried seems very counterproductive. However morale is extremely important...
Yknow, just saying
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holdplease2
Feb 4, 2006, 4:40 AM
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Kayo:
You are now officially banned from the aid forum.
-Kate.
:evil: :wink:
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kimgraves
Feb 4, 2006, 4:54 AM
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In reply to: I'm sure most people know this, but alcohol is a diuretic and will, in addition to the obvious weight added from the actual booze, cause a need for you to bring more water with you than you would need otherwise. Caffeine will also have the same unfortunate effect. Personally I don't drink coffee/tea or booze so the idea of bringing either on a trip where water has to be carried seems very counterproductive. However morale is extremely important...
Kayo,
There is some interesting new research about the effects of caffeine on cardiac blood flow at altitude. The problem is that you'd need to stop drinking coffee several days before climbing in order to avoid the withdrawal symptoms (I.e.: a big fucking headache) while climbing. Who in there right mind would want to give up coffee for that long? :?
As for alcohol: my cardiologist tells me that 2 glasses of wine a day is mandatory for good health. Who am I to argue with my doctor? :wink:
Best, Kim
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skinner
Feb 4, 2006, 6:36 AM
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Ah.. I see you are new to the sport Kayo, having only climbed for 3-4 months, so your response it understandable. I didn't drink, smoke or even cuss prior to aid climbing. But it's just impossible after zippering down a line that you worked on for 2 hours to get up, to say "aw shucks".
The natural auto response is more like, "FORFCUKSAKES", followed by "Your lead..and where that f------ bottle?" :D
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curtis_g
Feb 4, 2006, 7:00 AM
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In reply to: As for alcohol: my cardiologist tells me that 2 glasses of wine a day is mandatory for good health. Who am I to argue with my doctor? :wink: Best, Kim
that bugs me, i really don't think people that don't drink are missing out on anything. I'm not sure if I should take that serriously tho. haha
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justsendingits
Feb 4, 2006, 7:44 AM
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curtis please don't hijack this thread.
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drunkenmonkey
Feb 4, 2006, 3:40 PM
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Having runout of water halfway through the last day of an ascent of the Prow (my first big wall), bivying on the top of the route overnight, carrying down all our s**t the next day in 100+f heat whilst we got heat stroke I would advocate taking as much water as you can carry! HEat stroke and no water for 24hrs was horrendous to say the least. To top it off I guzzled a litre of water when i did find a water source and promptly threw it back up again.
There's a lesson here i'm sure! :wink:
Took a melon up Zodiac and ate it on the third day, amazing taste and hardly any waste. would def recommend.
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kimgraves
Feb 4, 2006, 7:08 PM
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In reply to: In reply to: As for alcohol: my cardiologist tells me that 2 glasses of wine a day is mandatory for good health. Who am I to argue with my doctor? :wink: Best, Kim that bugs me, i really don't think people that don't drink are missing out on anything. I'm not sure if I should take that seriously tho. haha
Hi curtis_g,
Not to hijack this thread, but let there be no mistake, there is good scientific evidence that moderate drinking has measurable health benefits. This evidence is so strong and compelling that doctors who keep up with the literature (like mine) don't hesitate to recommend to their patients that two drinks for men and one drink for women are positively good for cardiac health. You can easily fine the scientific papers if you Google. I've reprinted a NY Times article below because people who don't subscribe to the paper can't get access to the archives.
On the subject of whether people are missing out on something if they don't drink - it depends upon what your goals are. Drinking intoxicants is *very old. Beer and wine have been made by humans for probably close to 10,000 years. There is a lot of culture embodied in all those years.
I first really became interested in wine when I first went to France with my new "wife/partner" almost 17 years ago. We went to the south in the part of France that makes almost all of the "cheap wine" that the French drink on a daily basis. We went in September which is when the grapes are picked and the wine pressed. We would see great trailers filled with grapes on the narrow roads. Driving through the little hill towns you could smell the alcohol in the air from the new wine. Stopping for lunch and dinner in the little bistro's that are in every small town we would drink that new wine with the best food I had ever had in my life.
When I got home I learned to make my own beer - discovering just how hard it is to harness the fermentation process.
Today, Masha and I cook every day and sit down to eat with a bottle of wine on the table. We spend an hour at the table and share our day over that bottle.
This sort of civil and social atmosphere is essentially the same as gathering around at the bar with your buds after "a day" to retell the story. In that way, drinking is not a way to escape, it's a way to connect with and process the day. To my mind, that is truly valuable and not something I would want to miss.
Best, Kim
Reprinted from The New York Times
The Case for Drinking (All Together Now: In Moderation!)
By ABIGAIL ZUGER
Published: December 31, 2002
Many drugs can save your life or kill you, depending on how much of them you take. Only one comes on the rocks with a twist, in a chilled mug with a foamy head, or in a goblet with lingering overtones of raspberry and oak.
Alcohol has become the sharpest double-edged sword in medicine.
Thirty years of research has convinced many experts of the health benefits of moderate drinking for some people. A drink or two a day of wine, beer or liquor is, experts say, often the single best nonprescription way to prevent heart attacks -- better than a low-fat diet or weight loss, better even than vigorous exercise. Moderate drinking can help prevent strokes, amputated limbs and dementia.
But moderate drinking also comes with some health risks, such as a slightly increased risk of breast cancer in women. And heavy drinking is accompanied by a such a fearful range of illness and catastrophe that policy makers seeking to create coherent health recommendations for the use of alcohol are stymied.
Should major diet and lifestyle recommendations actually begin to endorse moderate drinking, defined as one or two alcoholic drinks a day?
Thirty years ago, health officials were so uncomfortable with this idea that a federal agency tried to suppress early data on alcohol's beneficial effects. Now, with the data long out of the bag, policymakers say this may be one of the few areas in medicine where general recommendations are simply not possible and individual doctors and patients will have to make decisions on their own.
The cardiac benefits of low-dose alcohol are evident in study after study. All over the world, moderate drinkers have healthier hearts than teetotalers, with fewer heart attacks from fatty plaque clogging the heart's arteries and blocking blood flow.
In countries like the United States where heart disease is a major cause of death, this translates into a survival advantage: moderate drinkers live considerably longer on average than nondrinkers.
''The science supporting the protective role of alcohol is indisputable; no one questions it any more,'' said Dr. Curtis Ellison, a professor of medicine and public health at the Boston University School of Medicine. ''There have been hundreds of studies, all consistent.''
Some studies called ''feeding studies'' have supplemented the diets of laboratory animals with alcohol and found less narrowing of their coronary arteries, thus less chance for blockage. People fed alcohol experimentally for a few months have changes in their serum lipids that lower their risk for heart disease. But the most compelling evidence for alcohol's benefits comes from large population studies, which have had impressive results.
*In a study of more than 80,000 American women, those who drank moderately had only half the heart attack risk of those who did not drink at all, even if they were slim, did not smoke and exercised daily. Moderate drinking was about as good for the heart as an hour of exercise a day. Not drinking at all was as bad for the heart as morbid obesity.
*In thousands of middle-aged Danish men with high cholesterol, moderate drinkers had 50 percent less risk of developing heart disease from blocked arteries than abstainers.
*Among more than 100,000 California adults, moderate drinking after age 40 was associated with reduced death rates during every subsequent decade of life -- in some people by as much as 30 percent.
When the first alcohol studies were published, some critics objected that underlying factors might be affecting the results: perhaps the people who drank modestly were simply healthier in general, or had better access to health care. Perhaps those who abstained from alcohol knew they had heart disease and quit drinking for that reason. But many studies involving many thousands of people have swamped these objections.
''All criticisms have been shot down,'' Dr. Ellison said.
Still controversial, though, is the question of whether any one form of alcohol -- wine, beer or hard liquor -- is better for the heart than any other. Studies here give answers to suit any palate.
Red wine was the first alcoholic beverage tagged as a lifesaver when researchers reported in 1979 that the higher a country's mean per capita wine consumption, the lower its rate of coronary artery disease. France was at one end of the spectrum, while Finland, Scotland and the United States, whose citizens consumed far less wine than the French, had heart disease rates almost fourfold higher. Thus arose the famous ''French paradox'' of heart disease -- even though the French diet is laden with butter, cheese, liver and other sources of animal fats, French hearts are relatively free of fatty blockages.
Meanwhile, though, other studies were examining the drinking habits of individual subjects, a technique scientists usually consider more reliable than examining population averages. These studies found similar sizable benefits from a few drinks a day among Italian wine-drinkers, Japanese and German beer drinkers, and Americans who preferred hard liquor.
''If you step back, the data shows that alcohol is beneficial in all three beverages,'' said Dr. Eric Rimm, an associate professor of epidemiology and nutrition at the Harvard School of Public Health. ''If there is any differential it is very small.''
The key to maximizing the benefits from any form of alcohol may be to take small quantities regularly ''like any drug,'' Dr. Rimm said -- a glass with every evening meal, rather than half a dozen glasses only on Saturday nights.
Recent research has shown that alcohol can benefit other organs as well as the heart. Moderate drinkers seem to have fewer strokes that result when the brain's arteries become clogged with fatty deposits. They are less likely to develop fatty plaques clogging the large arteries to the legs, which can lead to incapacitating leg cramps, gangrene or, at worst, amputation.
A large study from the Netherlands reported in The Lancet medical journal early this year showed that moderate drinkers over age 55 had about a 40 percent lower risk of developing dementia than nondrinkers, possibly because they were spared the multiple small strokes that can mimic Alzheimer's disease in the elderly.
But for every one of alcohol's health benefits there is an equal and opposite risk if a single glass turns into three or four.
The hazards of drinking begin with the small but significant increased risk of breast cancer among women who are moderate drinkers.
Even among those with no family history of breast cancer or other risks, studies have repeatedly found that women who regularly have a drink a day have a 10 percent higher risk of breast cancer than nondrinkers. Heavy drinking raises the risk even higher.
Moderate drinking may also cause a small rise in strokes caused by bleeding into the brain.
And once drinking rises from moderate to heavy, health risks escalate. ''You begin to see trouble at three to four to five drinks a day,'' said Dr. Rimm. Heavy drinking raises the risk of high blood pressure, heart failure and half a dozen forms of cancer; it may cause diabetes, pancreatic failure, liver failure and severe dementia.
Heavy drinkers have mortality rates far higher than moderate drinkers, statistics which do not even include the effects of car accidents and alcohol-fueled violence that destroy not only the drinker but others as well. These effects are especially visible in the young: in one study, young adults who reported drinking three to five drinks a day had death rates twice as high as nondrinkers.
The net health effects of alcohol are heavily influenced by its dangers. The World Health Organization estimates that over all, alcohol causes as much illness and death as measles and malaria, and more years of life lost to death and disability than tobacco or illegal drugs.
Health policy makers have been left an unwieldy balance. The benefits of moderate drinking are undeniable but, like all prevention strategies, invisible -- disease simply does not happen. On the other hand the ravages of excessive alcohol use are all too visible.
''You can't see the benefits but you can see the results of heavy drinking on any highway,'' Dr. Rimm said. ''I've had people call me up and say, what are you doing, how can you even be talking about recommending that people drink alcohol?''
Thirty years ago, policy makers just preferred to keep the whole conundrum quiet. The Framingham study, which began to examine risks for heart disease in 1948, was one of the first big studies to find heart benefits from alcohol. One of its researchers, Dr. Carl Seltzer, wrote in a short 1996 memoir that when he and his colleagues informed their government sponsors at the National Heart and Lung Institute in 1972 of these findings, they were forbidden to publish them.
''An article which openly invites the encouragement of undertaking drinking with the implication of preventing coronary heart disease would be scientifically misleading and socially undesirable in view of the major health problem of alcoholism that already exists in the country,'' their contact at the government agency wrote.
Ultimately the Framingham findings were published in the company of dozens of similar ones.
Now, most policy making organizations take the lead of the American Heart Association, which suggests that moderate drinkers need not stop drinking, but that teetotalers should not aim for a few drinks a day.
''We do not specifically encourage nondrinking individuals to achieve that range -- there is too much risk of habituation and disease,'' said Dr. Ronald M. Krauss, director of atherosclerosis research at Children's Hospital in Oakland, Calif., and national spokesman for the association.
Medical authorities who endorse moderate drinking may ''open up a Pandora's box of possible risks,'' said Dr. David Jernigan, research director at the Center on Alcohol Marketing and Youth at Georgetown University. Acclaiming the health benefits of alcohol without emphasizing these risks ''gives the product a halo effect that is confusing,'' he said.
Other experts feel that the key to intelligent policy is making all relevant information available so doctors and patients can make their own individual decisions.
''If I and others speak out on moderate drinking, will that lead to a country of cirrhotics?'' Dr. Ellison asked. ''I don't think so. The key is, how best do you present balanced information to the public? If you withhold balanced information, that's doing harm.''
Drinking ''is an issue that needs to be dealt with one on one,'' said Dr. Arthur Klatsky, a senior consultant in cardiology at Kaiser-Permanente Medical Center in Oakland, who was one of the first cardiologists to report alcohol's good effects.
For many people moderate drinking has absolutely no benefit at all, Dr. Klatsky said. This applies to all adolescents: teenagers have a negligible risk of heart disease and for them the risks of heavy drinking vastly outweigh any benefits of moderate drinking.
The same generally applies to men under 40 and women under 50, except for those with known heart disease risks. Pregnant women, people with liver disease, known drinking problems or a family history of alcoholism should never be advised to begin to drink for their health, he said.
But for others with known coronary heart disease or a risk of heart disease because of obesity, cholesterol levels, or smoking, moderate alcohol use may be a way to reduce that risk.
In fact for some people, Dr. Klatsky said, alcohol may be a lifesaver. Take a hypothetical man in his 50's who has already had a minor heart attack and has been frightened into doing everything in his power to protect his heart -- losing weight, watching his fat intake, giving up cigarettes -- for that man, forgoing a nightly glass of wine might actually raise his risk of recurrent heart problems, undermining all his good intentions.
''Can abstinence be hazardous to your health?'' Dr. Klatsky asked. ''Yes, for a person like that patient, it could be.''
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fatman
Feb 4, 2006, 8:34 PM
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I don't think it's been mentioned, but both beef jerky and gatorade are two of my wall necessities. The protein and salt of the jerky are awesome, and the sugar in the gatorade makes the warm water tasty. Other than that, canned fruit is well worth its weight.
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curtis_g
Feb 4, 2006, 9:31 PM
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In reply to: I don't think it's been mentioned, but both beef jerky and gatorade are two of my wall necessities. The protein and salt of the jerky are awesome, and the sugar in the gatorade makes the warm water tasty. Other than that, canned fruit is well worth its weight.
On a few of my desert backpacking trips I've found powdered gatorade packages to be a great addition but, while gatorade is a great addition to water, the commercial product is at a much higher concentration than those Florida Gator scientists prepared as ideal. My advice is preparing two quarts of drink with one of the packets meant to prepare one quart.
I second the jerky proposal.
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aspiringmonkey
Feb 4, 2006, 9:40 PM
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Kim that had to be the longest post ever, maybe you should put a link to your thesis or whatever.
Alcohol is great and all, but not nearly as important as your herbal remedies.
One more vote for the tuna envelopes and fruit in syrup, and a strong vote against the dehydrated food.
Who doesnt love a 2 liter of powered gatorade already mixed up, cooking in the sun and hanging from an anchor when you are low on water.
Hey Matt, ron seems disgruntled about agreeing with ya
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stymingersfink
Feb 4, 2006, 9:42 PM
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In reply to: Tuna bags. Not my favorite thing. Tuna is nasty, anyway. Go vegetarian. -Kate.
"Tuna may be nasty, anyway."
...but dolphin sure is tasty! (j/k :wink:)
Along the lines of what kate was saying, I must recommend you avoid ANY single-serving-cupped food item (like pudding cups) that has a foil top. Need I say more? What a sticky sweet-smelling mess.
NO wall is a BIG WALL,
'til someone forgets the ALCOHOL.
Wadda ya think makes it so BIG?
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climberboy193838
Feb 4, 2006, 10:03 PM
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idk Gatorade really dries out my mouth, i think drymouth would suck. One of my friends mixed fruit punch Gatorade and a grape protein drink. Works great, and wires you, not suggested to drink before trying to go to bed, like having a healthy triple shot of espresso before going to bed and having to wake up in 4 hours for a climb. Not very easy to sleep, trust me i know.
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kayo
Feb 4, 2006, 10:20 PM
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I never said that alcohol can never have positive health benefits. Everyone's heard that a glass of red wine a day prevents heart attacks, not surprising if that goes for other types of booze or that there is research to back that up. That does not change the fact that in the big picture missing a few days of boozing will not adversely affect your health and on any trip where you carry your own water it will cause the need for more. As for caffeine I avoid it for health reasons, but have many friends who would not even consider forgoing coffee (last trip I was on had a stovetop espresso maker on it, which I thought was funny, which he thought was required). However in the interest of reducing the amount of water you need to carry it seems to be another nobrainer in terms of reducing water weight. Whether or not you are willing to make that sacrifice is another story.
Now skinner, as you so astutely noted I am new to climbing, however I believe I can cofindetly say no situation in climbing will cause me to stress to the point of reaching for the bottle, although cursing is another story.
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ricardol
Feb 6, 2006, 6:17 PM
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RE: packets of food blowing up -- and foil top food items ..
.. hmm .. i was wondering why this has never happened to me .. and then it dawned on me!!!
FOOD BUCKET!!!
do yourself a favor (and your partner) .. and bring a food bucket ..
i bring 2 ..
the first one is a daily bucket that fits about a days worth of food .. its a small painter's bucket .. it fits inside the haulbag and i can fit the following in it
1 loaf of bread
1 dinner ration
1 lunch ration
1 breakfast ration
some snack bars + candies
1 spoon
.. this works great because you can stash your trash in it also .. until that night when you bring up the trash bag (which on my setup hangs down next to the poop toob --- which doesn't come up until the morning)
.. this daily food bucket keeps your stuff from getting crushed inside the bag.. (crushed bread sucks -- )
.. then i also have a MAIN food bucket .. which is a 5 gallon paint bucket that i rig for hauling .. i've been able to fit 12 days worth of food inside of one.
the only drawback i see is that if you fuck up the setup and the food bucket gets jettissoned .. then you would loose your food .. so dont do that .. (and it could get stuck while hauling) -- so just climb stuff that is steeep enough that it won't get stuck ..
.. i've used this setup for 3 walls .. at it works great .. my bread has never been crushed .. and i've never experienced the benefits of having my food explode in my bag..
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glowering
Feb 7, 2006, 6:02 PM
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Some more ideas:
Salami, cheese (string cheese individual packets seem to last the best), crackers, won't last more than a day or two, but makes a yummy, easy dinner the first night.
Pringles, they come in cans so they won't crush, made for walls?
Fig newtons, good for breakfast and snacks.
Kool-aid mix. Just dump 1 packet in a two liter of water. Makes warm water much better.
Dates - Salathe knew his shit.
100 proof cinammon schnapps. Like a shooter right out of the bottle. Easy way to get a buzz.
Must have jolly ranchers.
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stymingersfink
Feb 7, 2006, 10:37 PM
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In reply to: RE: packets of food blowing up -- and foil top food items .. bring a food bucket .. .. which is a 5 gallon paint bucket that i rig for hauling the only drawback i see is that if you f--- up the setup and the food bucket gets jettissoned .. then you would loose your food .. so dont do that ..
Yah, I've been considering it, having seen diagrams for how to rig 'em. Don't rely on the handle, tie yerself a sling handle with a teather for the lid. (There are some pretty cool screw-on lid adapters for the 5-gal bucket you can find on the 'net. )
Can't suggest a paint bucket though, I'll be using a recycled pickle or olive bucket/lid that a buddy at a local deli is saving for me. Gotta be food grade in my book. :wink:
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euroford
Feb 7, 2006, 10:46 PM
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that food bucket is a great idea, if i was in the valley i would definitly go for that. however on our long and treacherous approach, i just don't know how i could easily carry something like that.
though i'll definitly get some of those lite-duty disposable tupperware containers to house crushable items.
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iamthewallress
Feb 9, 2006, 6:44 PM
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In reply to: though i'll definitly get some of those lite-duty disposable tupperware containers to house crushable items.
My two experiences with plastic containers in the haul bag were as follows:
Partner 1 brought cookies baked by wife in heavy duty rubbermaid sandwich container. Route was a shorty, and steep, but the cookies made it all the way up...And my-oh-my were they good.
Partner 2 put foil topped items in large lite duty disposable to apease me...I was worried that they'd break. The thing was open before we got to the base, basically served little purpose on the climb as the lid always fell off. Eventually quit trying to putting it back on. The puddinds and fruits survived just fine though.
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stymingersfink
Feb 9, 2006, 8:06 PM
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In reply to: however on our long and treacherous approach, i just don't know how i could easily carry something like that.
Just tie it onto the top of your partners load, right!? :wink: :lol:
If it were me, I'd put it into the bottom a haul bag filled with food no less. This may help keep the bulk of the weight higher in the bag and centered between your shoulder blades, resulting in an easier pack in. Perhaps stuff software around it, then the hardware on top of it?
~Sty
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