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delanuez
Aug 3, 2007, 7:50 AM
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How do you rap past a knot.
Say you have two ropes tied together with a triple fishermans knot.
How would you get past that using an atc?
anyone know of a link or can show pictures how?
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domu888
Aug 3, 2007, 10:05 AM
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delanuez wrote: How do you rap past a knot. Say you have two ropes tied together with a triple fishermans knot. How would you get past that using an atc? anyone know of a link or can show pictures how?  I insist that you practise this a few feet off the ground above a crashpad before you try it for real.Here goes.
You're going to have to have more than just the ATC. You need at a minimum a loop of cord or a sling and two biners at the least. In an emergency you could do it without any extra gear, but I wouldn't recommend it and frankly its too dangerous for me even to explain: best get the cord/slings and a couple of locking biners. The safest way is to double up on the ATC, slings and locking biners, which I will explain towards the end.
If you know you're going to have to pass a knot, then its best to set it up before you rappel. You arrange the loop in a prussik around the rope and clip off with the biner, above your ATC. When you get to the joining knot, stop short of the knot using your prussik and not letting the joining knot get stuck in anything. Then, tie and clip a back-up knot in the rope below the joining knot of the 2 ropes. Leave plenty of rope between the joining knot and the back-up knot because you'll NEED it later. Next, fiddle with the prussik to unweight the ATC and support your own weight. See the note about a foot/thigh wrap later.
Next, and this is the dangerous bit that you don't want to do without the bottom back-up knot , unclip your ATC, being careful not to drop it and clip it back in below the joining knot and above the back-up knot. If you drop the ATC you're pretty much screwed so you might want to get another cord to clip the ATC off for safety.
The next step is pretty difficult without an additional prussik loop or sling to help unweight the top prussik. A foot or thighwrap might be useful here to hold the ATC: wrap the trailing rope, above the back-up knot, around a thigh or foot to hold your weight on the ATC and unweight the prussik. Next untie the prussik and re-tie it between the ATC and the joining knot.
Next, release the foot/thigh wrap and let the prussik take your weight. untie the back-up knot and continue rappelling.
Of course, the better way to follow this procedure is to double up on the cords and ATCs so that you're always backed-up. DO Practise beforehand!
If you have a look through some guides there are lots of different ways to pass a knot. The Falcon guide on "Self-rescue" comes highly recommended.
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swaghole
Aug 3, 2007, 11:41 AM
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domu888 wrote: delanuez wrote: How do you rap past a knot. Say you have two ropes tied together with a triple fishermans knot. How would you get past that using an atc? anyone know of a link or can show pictures how? Firstly, I would suggest you read the Falcon guide on "Self-rescue" and a book or two on big wall climbing. I've given one method below that I discovered for myself from a half remembered memory and by being a prat, so its not the safest and there are better ways. I insist that you practise this a few feet off the ground above a crashpad before you try it for real. Here goes. You're going to have to have more than just the ATC. You need at a minimum a loop of cord or a sling and two biners at the least. In an emergency you could do it without any extra gear, but I wouldn't recommend it and frankly its too dangerous for me even to explain: best get the cord/slings and a couple of locking biners. The safest way is to double up on the ATC, slings and locking biners, which I will explain towards the end. If you know you're going to have to pass a knot, then its best to set it up before you rappel. You arrange the loop in a prussik around the rope and clip off with the biner, above your ATC. When you get to the joining knot, stop short of the knot using your prussik and not letting the joining knot get stuck in anything. Then, tie and clip a back-up knot in the rope below the joining knot of the 2 ropes. Leave plenty of rope between the joining knot and the back-up knot because you'll NEED it later. Next, fiddle with the prussik to unweight the ATC and support your own weight. See the note about a foot/thigh wrap later. Next, and this is the dangerous bit that you don't want to do without the bottom back-up knot , unclip your ATC, being careful not to drop it and clip it back in below the joining knot and above the back-up knot. If you drop the ATC you're pretty much screwed so you might want to get another cord to clip the ATC off for safety. The next step is pretty difficult without an additional prussik loop or sling to help unweight the top prussik. A foot or thighwrap might be useful here to hold the ATC: wrap the trailing rope, above the back-up knot, around a thigh or foot to hold your weight on the ATC and unweight the prussik. Next untie the prussik and re-tie it between the ATC and the joining knot. Next, release the foot/thigh wrap and let the prussik take your weight. untie the back-up knot and continue rappelling. Of course, the better way to follow this procedure is to double up on the cords and ATCs so that you're always backed-up. DO Practise beforehand! If you have a look through some guides there are lots of different ways to pass a knot. The Falcon guide on "Self-rescue" comes highly recommended.
There's a much safer and easier way to do this with the munter mule on a long prussik loop. Also, never trust only one prussic as an attachement point. Always use another way of preventing a fall (ie second prussik or an Oh-My-God knot). While the book is pretty good, some steps are unclear. My advice to the OP - take a self rescue course or have an experienced climber show you the correct way. If you do decide to try this on your own, you can have another person belay on top rope as a backup.
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overlord
Aug 3, 2007, 11:49 AM
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swaghole wrote: If you do decide to try this on your own, you can have another person belay on top rope as a backup.
this is a good idea regardless of how you try it for the first few times (i mean alone, in a course (they should think of it anyway), instruciton by an experienced climber (so shoud he/she)). practice with additional safety, until you are comfortable with the tecnique.
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jeremy11
Aug 3, 2007, 10:58 PM
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skip the atc and the fishermans
rap on a munter and tie the ropes with an edk(really tight, dressed and with 16" tails for a backup after you pass it), when you get a foot or so above the edk, tie a fig 8 back up knot 6 feet down or so, then work the edk thru the munter - this requires a big pear biner of course. once the knot is thru, backup the edk with a double fishermans, undo the backup fig 8 and you are on your way.
definitely get Fasulo's book Self Rescue (Falcon Books) there is tons of great stuff in their.
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majid_sabet
Aug 3, 2007, 11:36 PM
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1-rap in ATC
2- stop 18 inches before knot reaches ATC
3- put a prusik above ATC and attach it with a seperate biner to your harness loop
4- take the rope below ATC and put a fig 8 on it, attach 8 to your loop with another biner and lock it.
5-lower yourself till prusik locks you on your rope
6- remove ATC with biner off your harness
7- attach ATC after the knot and lock it back in to harness and keep it tight.
8- get a sling, make a loop for your foot latter, attach it to another prusik above the first prusik then stand on the latter to undue the first prusik.
9-slowly step down from the latter till your weight is on the ATC.
10-once your weight is on the ATC, remove the second prusik
11- remove the fig 8 knot (backup safety knot) off your harness.
Ps. the fig 8 knot is the last knot to untie and its there in event you make a doo doo, you do not fall to base.
now I can do all of these with 1/2 of these tips but that is not for you to know .
(This post was edited by majid_sabet on Aug 3, 2007, 11:57 PM)
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dingus
Aug 3, 2007, 11:54 PM
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Yates Adjustable/Releasable daisy makes passing knots a breeze. When you need to get off the prussik you just grip the rappel brake side as normal and punch the release button on the daisy with the other - voila! You're off, undo the prussik and continue rap. Its good for fixed rope raps too where you may have to pass directionals etc. Very fast and efficient. Any time I plan on multiraps I want that adjustable daisy. It sure makes the job easier. Takes the sting right out of what is one of the scariest bits of knot passing. Also, makes using the above-the-knot rap backup more tolerable - if you accidently catch the knot you just do the same, punch the release on the daisy to let her go. Then loosen the knot, take the slack back out of the daisy, and contine rap!
Cheers
DMT
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bucknasty
Aug 7, 2007, 2:26 PM
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Go get a Gibbs ascender or 2 or 3 and use them in place of the prussik knots. You can get them at caving stores online. Though they'll cost more than some prussik cord, they'll last for years (mine are probably almost as old as I am, though I'm only 20, and they work great). They work a lot better than prussiks for a safety when switching ropes. It'll make your switch much easier and more secure. Other than that, follow the directions above.
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sinrtb
Aug 9, 2007, 9:37 PM
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I have never passed a knot while repelling but wouldn't it be better to just use 2 ATC's? Get to the knot on the first ATC then set up repel on the second ATC below the knot? Or is there something I'm not seeing?
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oldsalt
Aug 10, 2007, 1:05 AM
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I've been reading and considering, and I cannot figure when you would do this... Two ropes tied together, is the upper rope tied to an anchor?
When would you want to do this? I'll admit that the longest stretch that I have done is 6 pitches, but we rapped on two topes in three 200' stages. My first thought was, "Don't rap past a knot," but Dingus didn't blink at the question.
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domu888
Aug 10, 2007, 1:16 AM
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oldsalt wrote: I've been reading and considering, and I cannot figure when you would do this... Two ropes tied together, is the upper rope tied to an anchor? When would you want to do this? I'll admit that the longest stretch that I have done is 6 pitches, but we rapped on two topes in three 200' stages. My first thought was, "Don't rap past a knot," but Dingus didn't blink at the question. 
Also, I could envision having to rap past a butterfly knot or the like when a bad section of rope has been isolated.  The topic comes up a lot in caving (spelunking), so there must be more opportunity for this kind of problem there. Certainly a lot of rescue and industrial rope-access course instructors bring the topic up, though I guess its something you only need to know in the unlikely event that you do have to rap past a knot with a casualty.
Plus, this is a beginner's post and the kind of question beginners ask, even though they might never have to deal with it.
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rasoy
Aug 10, 2007, 1:44 AM
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Why listen to all this bullshit here?
Go to a practice cliff 50 to 100 feet high and try it.
Get a partner to belay you while you try it to be safe.
You will learn very quickly this way and understand what works and what doesn't.
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blueeyedclimber
Aug 10, 2007, 5:11 PM
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oldsalt wrote: I've been reading and considering, and I cannot figure when you would do this... Two ropes tied together, is the upper rope tied to an anchor? When would you want to do this? I'll admit that the longest stretch that I have done is 6 pitches, but we rapped on two topes in three 200' stages. My first thought was, "Don't rap past a knot," but Dingus didn't blink at the question.
I would say the most common instances when you would have to pass the knot are in emergency situations, either you need to rap off in a hurry or lower someone in a hurry. For someone experienced in passing knots, it is much quicker to do one long rappel or lower than multiple ones.
Josh
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rgold
Aug 10, 2007, 6:26 PM
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By the way, in an emergency situation with gear at a premium, there is a way to rappel past a knot without any prussiks or stirrups. Its a variation of the "two ATC" idea, which doesn't work because you can't get an ATC off the rope without unloading the rope. What you do is use a Munter in place of the first ATC, because you can pop a Munter off a weighted rope.
So what you do is install the Munter on the rope, with the Munter biner connected to the harness with a full-length runner. Then you pull up the rope and install your ATC just after the knot, clip the ATC to your belay loop and tie it off (you have to know how to do this; the tie-off must be releasable).
You then rappel (using the Munter) until you are hanging from the tied-off ATC, open the Munter biner gate and pop the Munter off the loaded rope, release the ATC tie-off and continue down.
The one caveat for this method is that you'll be rappelling on the Munter in its low-friction orientation, and this could be a problem if you are using thin ropes. Make sure you know from a safe practice situation how to do this and whether the Munter will provide a comfortable amount of friction.
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dbrayack
Aug 10, 2007, 6:56 PM
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It would help to have two repelle devices, a Gri Gri makes life simple (or auto-blocks/locks ?SP)
Rap down to knot, attach second rap device under knot.
Attach ascender/prusik above rap device about knot, unweight device, remove device, step down onto other device, unclip ascender, voila.
If there are two of you, the first person doesn't have to pass the knot.
What you can do is have the person clip below the knot. You put them on belay above the knot. You lower them to the end of the rope (tie a knot), then have them rappel the rest of the way.
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swaghole
Aug 10, 2007, 7:13 PM
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dbrayack wrote: It would help to have two repelle devices, a Gri Gri makes life simple (or auto-blocks/locks ?SP) Rap down to knot, attach second rap device under knot. Attach ascender/prusik above rap device about knot, unweight device, remove device, step down onto other device, unclip ascender, voila. If there are two of you, the first person doesn't have to pass the knot. What you can do is have the person clip below the knot. You put them on belay above the knot. You lower them to the end of the rope (tie a knot), then have them rappel the rest of the way.
You really need another way of tying yourself into the rope when you do this. No way can you trust just one prussik or ascender while you transfer your load to the belay device under the knot. Before you start the whole process, tie a figure 8 on a bight 10 feet below and clip it to your belay loop with a locker. If anything goes wrong when you transfer, that's your backup. Once you've passed the knot, don't forget to remove the figure 8 on a bight before your belay catches into it.
(This post was edited by swaghole on Aug 10, 2007, 7:15 PM)
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dbrayack
Aug 10, 2007, 7:15 PM
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Good call.
I failed to mention tieing a backup knot below the second device.
But would you need this is your second device was a Gri-GRI or Auto-blocked ATC?
When you're on the Prussik (or ascender), you're effectively on your lower rappell device?
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swaghole
Aug 10, 2007, 7:17 PM
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I would. Better then lawn-darting if you screw up something. It only take a minute to do.
If you look at the Petzl manual for an ascender, they always have the climber tie into a backup when ascending the rope. This is no different. You just have more gear in the way so more chances to screw something up. So, the backup knot should really be used.
(This post was edited by swaghole on Aug 10, 2007, 7:19 PM)
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dbrayack
Aug 10, 2007, 7:29 PM
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Indeed.
I've never considered a Prussik or Ascender to be an actual "anchor"...as in, if it were to fail I'd die. Just something of convenience.
Question:
When I do Rap on an ATC, and have a figure 8 tied, I often have trouble untieing it with one hand. It almost seems more dangerous to me.
Do you have any suggestions other than using an auto-block?
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majid_sabet
Aug 10, 2007, 7:41 PM
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dbrayack wrote: Indeed. I've never considered a Prussik or Ascender to be an actual "anchor"...as in, if it were to fail I'd die. Just something of convenience. Question: When I do Rap on an ATC, and have a figure 8 tied, I often have trouble untieing it with one hand. It almost seems more dangerous to me. Do you have any suggestions other than using an auto-block?
ok, let me see if I could help you on this,but few question first
1- how do you lock yourself on ATC in mid air
2- where do you put this fig 8 that you have trouble untieing ?
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dbrayack
Aug 10, 2007, 7:44 PM
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eight on a bite coming off the top of a cliff to backmyself up, about 10 feet down the rope.
ATC locked off normal.
AHHH I see...wrap the rope around your leg...so you can untie with both hands.
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rocknice2
Aug 10, 2007, 7:44 PM
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In this case though the prussic would have to physically break not just slip while under load until it melted, as in ascending a rope where you need to tie backups.
Remember that your at the knot that attaches the two ropes, which is also a backup for the prussic.
A mule hitch is the backup for the belay device once it's installed under the knot.
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majid_sabet
Aug 10, 2007, 8:21 PM
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dbrayack wrote: eight on a bite coming off the top of a cliff to backmyself up, about 10 feet down the rope. ATC locked off normal. AHHH I see...wrap the rope around your leg...so you can untie with both hands.
So this fig8 is below your ATC and it is attached to you as a backup while you are passing a knot ?
[URL=http://www.imagehosting.com/out.php/i1012455_untitled.JPG] 
(This post was edited by majid_sabet on Aug 10, 2007, 8:36 PM)
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