[I'm too much of a gumby to step into this discussion with an opinion, so take my question at face value. It's just an honest question.]

What's the purpose of bolting it ground up if it's going to be rebolted on rap?

if the bolter does a good job, then it wont need to be rebolted on rappel. the assumption that ground up bolting will end up being a poor bolt job is a faulty one. there are plenty of ground up routes out there that are well bolted.

a good bolter will be able to make the call, based on his experience and inclination (and crag ethics) whether or not to bolt ground up or top down.

ground up or top down, either can be screwed up just as easily if the guy doing the bolting doesnt know what he's doing.

Ground up is a good way to make a really shitty route that should later be chopped and rebolted on rap. No one gives a damm about someone’s first assent. What they care about is that the route is bolted as intelligent and safe as possible. The FA's onsight is not more important then the next 1,000 assents that will come afterwards by other people. If you only bolt a route with regards to your FA and you don’t care about how safe it is or how well the bolts are placed you are not worthy enough to bolt routes.

There is nothing more I hate then climbing some ghetto rigged sport route that has a bolt at every rest spot and huge run outs over the hard sections because it was bolted from the ground up. That is completely unacceptable. Bolt right or dont bolt at all...

Perhaps rock climbing just isn't your thing?

Curt

It’s not as much that I hate run outs as that I like sport. Sport climbing does not include run outs. If there is 20 feet between bolts, the route is not sport.

in the last few weeks i see a few posts regarding adding bolts to run out routes. I have also seen arguments made for the retro bolting of not so classic 5.8-5.10 routes, based on the f*#ked up logic that the current classics are now too crowded so we need more, so let's bring those run out routes DOWN to our level. Then we don't have to wait in line on the trade routes!
Since i lived in Yosemite all through the 80's and have a few of these run out routes you talk about i would like to clear up some myths.

myth #1- those run out 5.10 routes are out up by 5.13 climbers. therefore it is unfair that they bolt these routes so run out. Plus it is Nat. Park property, therefore any climber has the right to add these bolts.

Ok- if you really believe this then i have a RANCHO IN MEXICO I WOULD LIKE TO SELL YOU. CASH ONLY!
This is an absurd argument. Let me clue you in on these routes.
Before the days of RAP bolting and sport climbing there was a thing called commitment and every new route you did was ground up, un-rehearsed. You started at the bottom and put in gear if you could find it and bolts when you got a stance and if your calves held out for the hand drilling. If you could not get gear you either down climbed or went for it hoping for another stance higher up. Many a times i choose the later and ended up way out from the last bolt, wishing i was at Tenaya lake drinking a beer. But you COMMIT and if all went well you made it.

Second myth- it took a long time for me (and many others) to get to 5.13, so all those routes in the 80'2 had nothing to do with 5.13 or the modern frigging that goes on today. Again the word COMMITMENT!

Most climbers did not make routes run out on purpose, most of the time you got the stance that worked or you just kept going.

Cookie Monster is a prime example of where sport climbing f*#ks up the spirit of climbing. I did that route (1st pitch) ground up, placed all the gear and placed the pin on stance and got the red point. Other climbers tried it, had to resort of rapping in to place gear. I left the valley for the season and by the next year, rap bolting had taken over and it got bolted without my permission.

Commitment is what the sport has always been based on until now, and to take routes that have character and bring them down to some wanker's level, kills what little values and history and flavor we have left. If you want to clip bolts all day long then go to jail house or somewhere else.

Maybe instead of looking to bring a route down to your level, maybe you should strive to taste adventure and learn what the word committed means. Then when you do get the send it will be that much sweeter....Plus, with todays modern gear and small cams, there are a ton more gear possibilities than in the 80's, so another reason to go for it!

I cringe for the day that we become so sanitized and scared that climbing loses it's last thread of flavor and risk. I still love this sport and those routes have a ton of history and meaning to myself and many others. So find another line until you are ready to walk on the wild side....the reward will be greater than the risk and the memories will not fade like most sport climbs of today.
Kurt Smith