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possum2082
Mar 3, 2011, 7:42 PM
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http://rockempire.com/catalog?category=cams
so...i don't get it. in the ad, they say they are cheaper than camalots and i just found a 6 piece set on amazon for 5 bones cheaper.
they should be considerably cheaper considering they have hardly any r&d in this product.
btw, i'm not a re hater...i often place my re comet c4#5 equivalent and fully trust it. but this bugs me.
(This post was edited by possum2082 on Mar 3, 2011, 7:43 PM)
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K-Tanz
Mar 3, 2011, 8:03 PM
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Do you have any way to verify that there is "Hardly any R&D in this product" or are you just talking out your ass? Did you talk to the people at Rock Empire and ask them about load testing, engineering etc? As for them being BD ripoffs is that just because of the double axle design? There are a lot of other double axle designs out there. Are the DMM's BD ripoffs as well then? Don't get me wrong I have no idea about the time put ito these things, I just want to know if you do either.
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bearbreeder
Mar 3, 2011, 8:17 PM
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regardless of R&D ... the op is correct in saying that these arent much cheaper than the C4s at MEC ...
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sp115
Mar 3, 2011, 9:04 PM
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possum2082 wrote: http://rockempire.com/catalog?category=cams so...i don't get it. in the ad, they say they are cheaper than camalots and i just found a 6 piece set on amazon for 5 bones cheaper. they should be considerably cheaper considering they have hardly any r&d in this product. btw, i'm not a re hater...i often place my re comet c4#5 equivalent and fully trust it. but this bugs me.
The double axle patent ran out approximately 6-years ago.
http://crabdev.blogspot.com/...expired-in-2005.html
R&D is different from Reverse Engineering and the Rock Empire cams aren't copies any more than the DMM Dragons are.
Patents expire to foster development, rather than stagnate it. There is nothing to be upset about here.
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Rudmin
Mar 3, 2011, 9:22 PM
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What's kind of dumb about them is that from the specs it looks like they are using the same axle spacing for every size. Their range is a fair bit less than BDs. You can't tell from the photos because they only show one of them.
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possum2082
Mar 3, 2011, 11:34 PM
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yes, i believe the dragons are a rip off..that's why they came out after the bd patent expired.
i'm not sure of the a lot of double axle designs out there. i can only think of the c4 (with the dragon, re, and gear4rocks clones). max cams are gone and i'm just not sure if totem will stick around.
but you are correct in that i am speaking out of my ass about the r/d. my experience is in the pharmacy, and when a generic comes out...there goes the brand's moolah.
i look at it this way: bd had to have a dynamic team that came up with the idea of a double axle cam on the payroll. rock empire definitely had to do some homework. however, i doubt it was as much time in the think tank as bd.
hopefully that clears up why i felt i could talk out of my ass a bit.
and i still carry my pulsar.
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mrtristan
Mar 3, 2011, 11:43 PM
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If these were $20 cheaper each, I can see why someone would buy them vs. the Camalot. But when the prices are so close ($5-$10 difference), I don't understand why anyone would get them.
Maybe it's for that awesome doubled sling :D
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sp115
Mar 4, 2011, 12:13 AM
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possum2082 wrote: ...my experience is in the pharmacy, and when a generic comes out...there goes the brand's moolah. i look at it this way: bd had to have a dynamic team that came up with the idea of a double axle cam on the payroll. rock empire definitely had to do some homework. however, i doubt it was as much time in the think tank as bd. hopefully that clears up why i felt i could talk out of my ass a bit. and i still carry my pulsar.
Trust me, I can relate to your issue with cheap, illegally produced copies, but this isn't the same. It's legal and there really are some good arguments for limited patent life.
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Rudmin
Mar 4, 2011, 12:32 AM
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possum2082 wrote: i look at it this way: bd had to have a dynamic team that came up with the idea of a double axle cam on the payroll. rock empire definitely had to do some homework. however, i doubt it was as much time in the think tank as bd.
I don't think Black Diamond even existed when the double axle cam was invented.
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possum2082
Mar 4, 2011, 12:35 AM
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i definitely see the point of limited patent life. it causes new innovations and keeps progress rolling along.
this is off topic, but astra zeneca, the makers of prilosec piss me off.
they knew prilosec was going otc and generic...deadly combo. they were going to be losing mass money. so, they came up with nexium...the new purple pill. here's the deal though (and forgive my rough organic chem, it's been awhile): prilosec cotains R and S isomers of the same chemical. one works and one doesn't, it's inactive. they isolated the isomer that is active and got a new patent and we have nexium.
dirty.
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K-Tanz
Mar 4, 2011, 1:10 AM
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Agreed that they're not a whole lot cheaper than the BDs and for the money I'd fork out the extra for the Black Diamonds. RE does make a decent product, though, the comets and the like are way worth it IMO. And damn if pharmaceutical companies don't know how to make a righteous buck
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vinnie83
Mar 4, 2011, 2:21 AM
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It's not like they just went out, measured the dimensions of a set of C4s, and then started cranking out cams a few days later based solely on that data. They may not have put as much into it as BD did to produce the first double axle cam, but being an engineer I know they still put a decent amount of time and money into it.
Keep in mind that for 20 years while the patent was valid Chouinard/Black Diamond was the exclusive manufacturer of double axle cams, over which time they continued to build a great reputation for themselves. I doubt they are at all concerned that rock empire is making double axle cams for few bucks less.
(This post was edited by vinnie83 on Mar 4, 2011, 2:28 AM)
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qwert
Mar 4, 2011, 9:28 AM
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Well, where does copying start and where does "why didnt we think of that?" end?
Are all cars except for daimler benz ripoffs?
Are all single axle cams that are not wild countrys ripoffs?
Are all dual axle cams that are not BD ripoffs?
I dont know the perfect answer to any of that questions.
What i do know, is that the new RE cams (as well as the DMM) are at least not a 1:1 copy of the camalot. Obviously there are many similarities, but then there arent too many ways to build a cam.
Whereas the DMMs seem to aim for a market slot above the camalots, the REs want to fit in below them.
Price wise i would guess at least in europe they should be considerably cheaper than camalots, if i compare their US prices with their other wares (cant find a euro site that sells them yet), but they will probably be more expensive than REs other cams.
qwert
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JimTitt
Mar 4, 2011, 12:39 PM
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Prices in Germany
Rock Empire Axel #4 37-60mm 110g 14kN €44.00
BD C4 #2 37.2-64.9mm 158g €69.95
Lower range, lower weight, lower price. You pay your money and make your choice! Or bolt it!
Jim
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gunkiemike
Mar 6, 2011, 1:06 AM
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possum2082 wrote: here's the deal though (and forgive my rough organic chem, it's been awhile): prilosec cotains R and S isomers of the same chemical. one works and one doesn't, it's inactive. they isolated the isomer that is active and got a new patent and we have nexium. dirty.
Chiral-specific synthesis is pretty high-end chemistry. I am not at all surprised that the PTO gave them the patent.
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scotty1974
Mar 7, 2011, 4:44 PM
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Well they used to be cheaper, then they obviously put alot more quality materials into them and the price went up.
Do a picture side by side of the RE's. They look a heck of alot better now than before!
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