Since we're arsing on about numbers, how tall are you Jay?

Because frankly, I had a lightbulb moment when on another thread you mentioned you weigh 135 lbs. No man I know, climber or otherwise, weighs that little unless they're 5'6. Ergo, it occurs to me that you have small man syndrome. Otherwise, I simply can't account for your obsession with e-peen battling.

Because frankly, I had a lightbulb moment when on another thread you mentioned you weigh 135 lbs. No man I know, climber or otherwise, weighs that little unless they're 5'6. Ergo, it occurs to me that you have small man syndrome. Otherwise, I simply can't account for your obsession with e-peen battling.

You must not know that many 5.12+ and harder climbers then. Of the ones I know, average weight is between 120 and 150, height ranges from 5'6" to 6'2". If you climb long enough, and structure your diet well enough (since Jay is a nutritionist, I kind of expect that), you will get to a fairly low weight, if only because that means you have less to haul up the rock.

So try again.

/6'1"
//170lbs
///rarely onsights harder than 10c sport

You must not know that many 5.12+ and harder climbers then. Of the ones I know, average weight is between 120 and 150, height ranges from 5'6" to 6'2". If you climb long enough, and structure your diet well enough (since Jay is a nutritionist, I kind of expect that), you will get to a fairly low weight, if only because that means you have less to haul up the rock.

So try again.

/6'1"
//170lbs
///rarely onsights harder than 10c sport

The reason is very simple. Trad climbers have more balls. I hate to say it, and I'm sure I'll catch hell from die hard sportsters for saying so, but it is absolutely true, and for one very simple reason that most miss. Unless you're sport climbing on a route with ancient and corroded 1/4 bolts, then you don't have to worry about your "protection" holding your fall. Trad climbers do not have that luxury. We don't rappel from the top and lock off to perfectly place a cam/hex/nut/tricam and then clip into a biner in half a second on the way up. We climb from the ground up, sometimes blindly and not knowing if we've brought adequate protection. The sport climber does not bear this task- at all.

Even beginner sport climbers can quickly master clipping in if they are not complete clods (which inevitably some are) Trad... not so easy. You have a much more intimate experience with the rock, for not only are you trying to haul your ass up it using your hands, you're in a constant state of evaluation of the quality of rock, and the features in which you can PLACE gear that will hopefully save your life in the event of a fall.

I have respect for anyone that can climb hard grades. I have no problem with bolted faces that can't be protected otherwise. I have no problem with a lone bolt on say... an unprotectable traverse (e.g. Zoo View 5.7, Moore's Wall NC). However, if gear can be safely employed to send a route, bolting it is just a tragedy- not to mention a big fat fuck you to everyone that developed both disciplines into what they are today. Although I do enjoy the adventurous nature of trad, and I prefer that discipline the most, I still do not label myself a "trad climber". I still top rope project routes, and I sport lead quite often as well. I'm a climber, period. I do not wish to disrespect the discipline of sport climbing, because I enjoy it. But to say that trad climbing doesn't require more balls, and an entirely different and added skillset than sport climbing is horseshit.

This, my friend, is why some trad climbers cast disparaging remarks on sport climbers.

I have to bite on that. My personal experience aside (only recently done some trad) i have been serounded by trad climbers for years. 99% of them share the same common fear of not wanting to fall. All of those as a result hit mind games and do not climb harder than E2. Their are only a very few that i know of who push past that but not much further.

Mostly i put that down to the fact that all they do is trad. Trad is not the best place to get strong (that much i learnt from my own climbing under the style). IMO i have had the best possible start to trad, im not insanely strong, but enough to climb E5 at the very least. I KNOW physically i'm able for that.. Mentally defo not.. but half the battle is already won.

The only reason i would have ''balls'' to be looking up the line of E5's and more is because of sport climbing. If i had no mental game and no physical side.. i will also be doing nothing but E1's for years on end.. like they have.

And having ''balls'' is a personal attribute.. not a style of climbing. The trigger for peoples fear is not exclusive to trad.. people get scared bouldering. The show of ''balls'' is overcoming that fear and getting on with it.

I know the obvious argument is that trad can kill, bouldering can not (well it can but freak accidents). The point is, fear is fear.. once it gets you.. it cripples you in the same way.

I have to bite on that. My personal experience aside (only recently done some trad) i have been serounded by trad climbers for years. 99% of them share the same common fear of not wanting to fall. All of those as a result hit mind games and do not climb harder than E2. Their are only a very few that i know of who push past that but not much further.

Mostly i put that down to the fact that all they do is trad. Trad is not the best place to get strong (that much i learnt from my own climbing under the style). IMO i have had the best possible start to trad, im not insanely strong, but enough to climb E5 at the very least. I KNOW physically i'm able for that.. Mentally defo not.. but half the battle is already won.

The only reason i would have ''balls'' to be looking up the line of E5's and more is because of sport climbing. If i had no mental game and no physical side.. i will also be doing nothing but E1's for years on end.. like they have.

And having ''balls'' is a personal attribute.. not a style of climbing. The trigger for peoples fear is not exclusive to trad.. people get scared bouldering. The show of ''balls'' is overcoming that fear and getting on with it.

I know the obvious argument is that trad can kill, bouldering can not (well it can but freak accidents). The point is, fear is fear.. once it gets you.. it cripples you in the same way.

I have seven balls at last count. The dog chewed one, but even deflated it's still ball-shaped.

And there you go. No one is arguing that the vast majority of the climbing population can do higher grades in sport than in trad. Ever consider the reason for this strange anomaly? Nevermind. Also, no one posed the argument that one can hone strength and technique doing sport routes perhaps moreso than doing trad routes. Have you considered the possible reasons for this? Again, nevermind. If you cannot draw the correlation between these two trends, then I don't know what else I could possibly say. In addition, I didn't speak from a platform that even remotely implied that balls were NOT a personal attribute, and not a climbing style, so I'm still scratching my head on where the origin for your rebuttal came from. Oh, and as far as the "fear is fear" thing, bouldering highballs which I've only had limited experience with DID make me feel like I had a carrot in my ass. Taking a 20 footer on a jagged route and barely being caught by a .5 camalot before I got violated by a sharp flake... well that one made me shit a meat axe. Not exactly the same thing. Again, I'd like to reiterate that I do not profess undying loyalty to any discipline, as I enjoy them all. Nor do I look down on any one more than another. You're being defensive and offering irrelevant rebuttals that don't pertain to the original commentary at all. The question was "why are sport climbers dissed so much by trad? " and I was merely offering what I thought was the answer. I'm sorry that I offended you to the point of grasping at straws. I apologize.

Your right, nobody was.

You stated that trad climbers (i assumed as a whole) have more balls than sport climbers. If you meant the elite trad climbers who try to on sight E6+ then ok sure.. my hat is off to those few nut jobs, but the avg joe who do it have no balls at all. They climb shit they perceive as having zero chance of taking a fall on.

The reason is very simple. Trad climbers have more balls. I hate to say it, and I'm sure I'll catch hell from die hard sportsters for saying so, but it is absolutely true, and for one very simple reason that most miss. Unless you're sport climbing on a route with ancient and corroded 1/4 bolts, then you don't have to worry about your "protection" holding your fall. Trad climbers do not have that luxury. We don't rappel from the top and lock off to perfectly place a cam/hex/nut/tricam and then clip into a biner in half a second on the way up. We climb from the ground up, sometimes blindly and not knowing if we've brought adequate protection. The sport climber does not bear this task- at all.

Even beginner sport climbers can quickly master clipping in if they are not complete clods (which inevitably some are) Trad... not so easy. You have a much more intimate experience with the rock, for not only are you trying to haul your ass up it using your hands, you're in a constant state of evaluation of the quality of rock, and the features in which you can PLACE gear that will hopefully save your life in the event of a fall.

I have respect for anyone that can climb hard grades. I have no problem with bolted faces that can't be protected otherwise. I have no problem with a lone bolt on say... an unprotectable traverse (e.g. Zoo View 5.7, Moore's Wall NC). However, if gear can be safely employed to send a route, bolting it is just a tragedy- not to mention a big fat fuck you to everyone that developed both disciplines into what they are today. Although I do enjoy the adventurous nature of trad, and I prefer that discipline the most, I still do not label myself a "trad climber". I still top rope project routes, and I sport lead quite often as well. I'm a climber, period. I do not wish to disrespect the discipline of sport climbing, because I enjoy it. But to say that trad climbing doesn't require more balls, and an entirely different and added skillset than sport climbing is horseshit.

This, my friend, is why some trad climbers cast disparaging remarks on sport climbers.

So you're saying except for the elite badass nutsos like Holding, Wright, and Berthod, etc., your average climber that places gear and goes ground up only do routes that they aren't challenged by and feel as though they can do without falling. I respectfully disagree. I'm wondering; is that just a personal opinion or are these things that you've just witnessed in your area, or everywhere you've been?

if you ain't placin pro, then you ain't climbin!

[quote "jt512"]Quote:
Sport climbing takes less skill than crack climbing,


Baloney. Sport climbing does not require less skill than crack climbing, though it does require fewer skills. In sport climbing you don't need to know how to place gear, route find, self-rescue, find the descent, keep your head together on a runout, etc. But it doesn't take less skill. In sport climbing, the moves are harder and, contrary to what you've said below, less intuitive.

Quote:
Its more intuitive to pull down on a hold, hand jamming takes pratice and is not at "easy".


Your vision of what sport climbing entails is too limited. There is a hell of a lot more to it than "pulling down on holds." As an example, look at the first hard move on Hellraiser (5.12c) at Williamson Rock in SoCal. It goes something like this: From a right-hand gaston and a left-hand side-pull, stretch far out left with the left foot. Push with the right hand and pull with the left foot to rock over onto the left foot, while simultaneously bringing the right foot up into a high backstep and reaching with the left hand for a distant gaston. This puts you in a double-gaston-iron-cross-high-backstep. From this "intuitive" position, cross the right hand over the left, let the feet kick loose, reposition the feet on higher holds to the left, and deadpoint with the left hand to a jug.

I have found that most people fail to find this move intuitive. In contrast, the "sequence" up a crack is no secret.

-Jay

[ This Message was edited by: jt512 on 2002-12-13 11:14 ][/quote]

Thanks for blowing the onsight for me Jay[;)]

Yeah im saying that, Our routes are graded with factor of death or injury in mind. Its not just about difficulty but also the protection of the route. From around E5 onward (getting into 5.12 and up kinda climbing) that is where falls have far greater chance of resulting in injury and death even if things are done right. The placement of gear becomes far between, you could have a first placement 3m up, then nothing else for 10m. All of the harder single pitch routes i have seen are very run out, almost to the point where i ask what is the purpose of placing any gear at all.

Put it this way, most people would not try to on sight a E6 unless climbing at least 8b sport.

Let me think, how else can i get to the level of 8b sport... with ought uhm... doing sport.

Btw, i read an article on one of holdings climbs. He top roped it a few times first before leading it if i recall. Not that im trying to take anything away from him as a fall would have been bad.. but your slightly delusional in thinking the avg climber has anything that resembles ''balls'' while climbing routes way below what he done. Do a vote if you want, i bet you my house most people on this site and world wide do not climb at such a level where the route can not protect properly against a serious fall. The in mind, if they are competent in placing gear then they are not that far off the safety margins of sport climbing.

Given the fact that you hang around longer while placing gear.. its logical that people downgrade more to stay within their endurance or strength limits.

Basically, in short.. your wrong.