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ecocliffchick
Jul 13, 2004, 2:47 PM
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Just to build off of comments posted earlier today with regards to climbers disobeying rules at Nemo...
How many of you- the Ontario climbers- were taught by mentors how to climb outdoors?
or at least the differences between the gym and the crag?
for safety?
for protecting access?
for preserving the environment?
What can we do to convince people to respect both the official rules and the understood etiquette of the crags?
Any thoughts?
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mumarkz
Jul 13, 2004, 2:58 PM
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Hi,
Myself and some friends started in the gym recently. We have just started venturing outdoors (Mostly Rattlesnake). We took two separate courses with a instructor who taught us a lot of the rules and etiquette for climbing outdoors.
To be honest - I'm learning lots just reading these posts as well. We also had an excellent instuctor so I think we are doing things the right way (wrapping the base of trees with protection, not top roping off of the cedars etc)
Are there any other things we shouls be considering when TR'ing on the Escarpment?
(we'll be Trad climbers someday!)
Thanks,
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wings
Jul 13, 2004, 2:59 PM
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I first started climbing in the gym.
My first several trips outside were to top rope with someone who was experienced at setting it up.
I hired a guide to learn how to trad.
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Through the latter two experiences, I learned about the access issues in Ontario, and what can be done to lessen our impact on the environment. This wasn't really news to me as I am fairly well versed in environmental issues to begin with.
Most of the people I know and climb with (nay, all of them) are aware of the access issues and respect them. To a certain extent, it's one of the reasons I climb with them (I wouldn't climb with them otherwise).
Most people will respond positively if you let them know, in a non-confrontational manner, that they are crossing the line with respect to rules and etiquette. And that's what we should continue to do ... approach them in a non-confrontational manner.
Some people will not respond without threat of punishment. In that case, the only solution I can see is to have park rangers who will administer these punishments, and right now there really aren't any.
My suspicion is that public floggings would not be effective as most people who live in this region have more reason to follow the access rules, and so they are less likely to be the ones disobeying them. However, I could be mistaken.
- Seyil
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jumpingrock
Jul 13, 2004, 3:24 PM
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I was introduced by somebody how to climb outdoors but I am largely self taught except for trad and anchors.
I read a book called "From Gym to Crag" Which taught me alot of stuff about the differances between the gym and the crag.
Books, other climbers and common sense taught me safety though I am still learning as we speak.
Protecting access and environmentalism were taught to me by my parents (avid outdoors people and my father is a wildlife biologist nationally recognized for his achievements in environmental causes) and applying what was taught in a general sense to the specific act of climbing was a fairly simple thing to do.
In terms of teaching people to respect the etiquete of the crags.... I dunno, I think this is a tough question that really needs answering in more places than just Ontario. However, in Ontario's case I think we should form a vigilante and go and shoot the offenders. Seriously, there really isn't much that can be done about this except for whenever you see an offender go up to them and try to explain why what they are doing is wrong. If there is litter pick it up. We can't change the minds of those that are not willing to be changed and we can't kill them or cut their ropes. All we can do is our little part and hope that the actions of those of us who care and who want access for ourselves and our children will out weigh those who don't care.
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ecocliffchick
Jul 13, 2004, 4:24 PM
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In reply to: Are there any other things we shouls be considering when TR'ing on the Escarpment?
Stuff that seems like common sense to me - but seems to be ignored by many including:
1. Clean your tick marks if you feel the need to make them
2. Climb the rock, not the trees - even when it's a scary mantel
3. Realize that for many, a constant stream of beta between partners is obnoxious to have to listen to.
4. If you are TRing a route, try not to claim it as yours for the entire day, leaving your rope up while you are eating lunch - even if you were there first.
5. Many people are climbing outside because they prefer the natural environment to the gym. On that note, minimize or eliminate the use of cell phones, radios, game boys, etc., and let us listen to the rock.
True, none of these are hard and fast rules... but just good etiquette to keep in mind at the cliff.
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myusername
Jul 13, 2004, 4:39 PM
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ecocliffchick wrote:
"... and let us listen to the rock."
Kathryn,
any chance the rock is saying "we need more routes" ? :wink:
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meshuga3
Jul 13, 2004, 5:05 PM
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I'm sure there are some areas in Ontario screaming 'we need new routes...'
As a general reply to the question of crag etiquette, albiet one aimed at what to do when you're going to or coming from the crag, I offer the following advice:
Don't be a dick.
That's hard advice for me to swallow, as I just can't stand questions like "How'd you get the rope up there?" from the turons (to borrow a word from Matt Samet). But it's all-encompassing advice, including:
1. Stay on established trails
2. Pack out your garbage
3. Clean up your dog's mess
4. Try to keep the profanity at a minimum when around Grandma and Grandpa, out on the Bruce for a nice day hike
5. Be respectful to land managers since they own the cliffs, and a corollary,
6. Respect established policy for each cliff at which you climb. At Nemo, that may mean not slinging trees.
The goal would be to foster better land manager/climber relations. Regardless of how you may feel concerning individual pieces of policy, it can't possibly hurt to be on better terms with the land owners.
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p_grandbois
Jul 13, 2004, 5:24 PM
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Meshuga nailed it. I think people just need to show a better level of respect. Maybe making examples of some by throwing some fines. It would help in the end. I am a NW Ontario buff and have moved to Waterloo, so I am new in those crags. With my naive opinion on the matter, I would say you just have to put your foot down and fine some people. In my local crag, I was streaming up an 11 something or other and go hit with a rope. The same day I collected a whole bunch of garbage.
People are people, the best you can do, is what you do yourself, the turrons( I got it) will come, you can only do your best. In the end people shoudl have some sense of respect for the rocks and the others climbing. In a perfect ontarian world it would be so, but it isn't.
Just keep up your own battle, and I commend you all for the fight. I will do mmy part and make the nOObs and tourists very aware of the etiquette when I am their.
Cheers
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*thriller*
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Jul 13, 2004, 5:47 PM
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i was brought outside for the first time by some experienced climbers from my gym, including Jay, the owner of percy's peak (in sarnia where i started climbign). They taught me at metcalf how to set up TR anchors and about the environmental impacts and all that jazz. After moving to go away to school, I had no mentor, so I self-taught sport climbing by reading a lot and practicing (mock lead) in the gym. I learned trad this summer by learning from mentors at yosemite and got back to Mt. Nemo for the first time in 5 years (i went once 5 years ago to TR before I know about the voluntary ban).
when climbing in ontario you definetly see people disobeying the rules, so i think it's a good thing to remind people or let them know if they are clueless. I was at Buffalo Crag a few weeks ago and topped out to find people setting up a TR on two cedars. I pointed out that this was against the rules, and that they should use natural blocks, trad gear, or other trees. I let them know why you're not supposed to use the cedars (they had no idea) and told them that the choice was theirs to make, but if the rangers came by they may be looking at some stiff fines.
it goes without saying that there's always going to be ignorant people who think the cliff is theirs to use as they please, but i think most climbers are good-natured, and if informed of the rules, will obey them. The best way I can think of this getting across is to have the rangers at the booth hand out pamphlets with the info for climbers. This, however, comes at a cost and the rangers have to co-operate.
anyways, thats my rant on the subject - take it or leave it.
ian
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yezad
Jul 13, 2004, 6:48 PM
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Registered: Aug 16, 2002
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I stared in the gym with the intention of moving outside as soon as I felt ready. The crag skills that I've learned until now I've learned from books like "Gym to Crag," sessions with local guru Robert Chisnall and from friends and acquaintances that are far better climbers than I.
I think the "Don't be a Dick" Rule is the best one
Be respectful to:
1) The people around you, regardless of whether they are climbers or not.
2) The environment. Leave nature as you found her. Pick up your garbage, thoroughly douse any campfires....and if I see you being cruel to any animals, I'll kick your A$$
3) Don't do anything stupid. Risks are an inherent part of climbing, but be smart about which risks are worth taking. If you feel unsure about anything that you're thinking of doing, either don't do it, or get someone more experienced than yourself to help you. I think it's always a good idea to be as informed about what you're doing as possible. Nothing puts a damper on a day at the crag then having the rescue chopper come to rush you to the hospital.
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