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faphantom
Nov 14, 2002, 12:24 PM
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Ladies Room-
Probably not the best title...but I thought this would be the best place to ask this question.
Before getting married, I climbed with many different women. Some could climb strong, some couldn't. The ones who could always seemed to consider themselves in some sort of elite club(which of course...they were). It was obnoxious, because they seriously let it go to their head. I found that the stronger they climbed(and by strong- I mean they could lead trad AND sport 10 and above) the more cocky they got and consequently- no fun to be around. They couldn't get their heads through their capilene pullovers!
They were/are a big attraction to every male climber within ear/eye-shot, but the more I got to know them, the more I realized their climbing accomplishments weren't all that impressive with an attitude like that.
My wife? She is sweet, beautiful, and incredibly fun to be around. She hangs usually when following me on 5.10, and isn't interested in leading whatsoever. I'm fine with that, especially with her great attitude.
So now- my questions, Ladies-
1.If you climb "Hard" (hard among your peers), do you find you have an attitude to match?
2.What do you think of "elitist" women who think they are God's gift to the climbing world(which they are).
3.Do you think the stronger you climb, the more respect you deserve from your male counterparts and from other climbing ladies?
Just wonderin',
FA Phantom
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ecocliffchick
Nov 14, 2002, 4:11 PM
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I don't really know whether I'm qualified to answer this or not, 'cause I don't really know whether I climb "hard" or not. What I can say is that you find a lot of elitist climbers (both male and female) who climb hard and thinks that makes them better than everyone else.
I do believe I am in the minority as a woman who climbs and likes to roadtrip. I don't see too many other girls giving up their homes, their jobs, their security and their stuff to hang out in a van for months at a time and eat oatmeal and mac'n'cheese everday so that they can "live the lifestyle". But I don't think that this makes me a better climber than anyone else, but it might make me a more desirable climbing partner to those guys that want to be road tripping.
I really hope I don't ever come off as having the holier than thou attitude I've seen in some gyms where these girls won't talk to you because they send hard stuff and you might not. It's just sad. There aren't enough girls who climb around here for us to have snobby cliques though!
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rockwomyn
Nov 14, 2002, 4:24 PM
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Boy...i feel like i climb really hard....but every time i think i am kicking major butt....i get humbled. which is fine with me. I truly hope that i can push my grades in the future and lead harder routes but getting a big head about it kind of seems silly. To me having a huge ego to maintain could possibly put me at higher risk of an accident. this is not a sport to me where you master it, you just develop a give and take relationship with the rock.....for every ounce of strength i have to give the rocks is right there to take it from me and challange me. therefore keeping my ego in check. make any sense?
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katydid
Nov 14, 2002, 7:02 PM
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Quote:
1.If you climb "Hard" (hard among your peers), do you find you have an attitude to match?
I only climb hard compared to toddlers. But I started climbing when I was 30, and I'm way past my "sports make me cool" phase, so I'm a lot more interested in learning and having a good time than showing anyone up. That's not going to change no matter how hard I eventually climb.
Quote:
2.What do you think of "elitist" women who think they are God's gift to the climbing world(which they are).
I think that "elitist" climbers, male or female, are silly. Of course, they probably think that about me, too. But I have been lucky and haven't met that many. I hang out with the people I have fun with, and since I'm not in it for the competition, I don't find that an enjoyable social group.
Quote:
3.Do you think the stronger you climb, the more respect you deserve from your male counterparts and from other climbing ladies?
I think climbing hard CAN indicate that a climber has more experience than I, but it's not an immediate cause for respect. If a person is a fabulous climber, a nice person, a good teacher, willing to help, and so forth, THEN they get my respect. I may be impressed with their athletic ability, but I will never base my respect on how hard someone's pulling. Not a good indicator of the overall person, which is more important.
Of course, I look for the same qualities in lousy climbers such as myself.
I *admire* women like Lynn Hill, Beth Rodden, and so on, for their talent, but I don't know them as people, so I'm not going to say I "respect" anything but their climbing ability. I'd have to meet them to find out if I respected the "whole package."
Kate
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faphantom
Nov 14, 2002, 7:13 PM
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Kate-
I have met them both (Hill and Rodden) and let me tell you- they do not fit into the above group- they ARE fantastic, humble and intriguing persons. True Heroes.
Thanks for the answers.
I agree- I can usually tell within minutes of meeting a person whether or not they will make a good partner or not. If not...I don't have the time to waste.
FA Phantom
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esimhs99
Nov 14, 2002, 9:31 PM
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i agree that climbing with ego is no fun to anyone involved. it makes for careless mistakes and tension between the group. but i also find it hard, being a woman, and climbing with guys. sometimes they just dont think that women can do it, or that they are better because they are male. and for this reason i can get on the defensive about my climbing. i am not trying to be egotistical about it, and hope that i dont come off that way, but i do feel that sometimes i have to prove myself...which sometimes sucks.
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olebetsy
Nov 15, 2002, 8:34 PM
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Hmm. Well, I climb as hard as I can, and am getting up more difficult problems as time goes by, but maybe because I started so late in life - age 50 - I am not investing a whole lot into climbing, personally. I'm not an egotistical person, either. Egotistical people show up in every part of life, not just in women climbers. I've been delighted to be able to climb at all, and to meet a great group of folks, male, female, young, old, and in-between. I guess there are some snooty ones around, but somehow I don't hook up with them. You evidently stumbled into a nest of over-competetive, insecure folks.
I've met Lynn Hill, as well as a Canadian woman, Jola Sandford, who's also a phenomenal
climber and neither one was an " elitist," but they were definitely in an elite group of women. Don't know about " God's gift," I'm not religious, but they have talents they have worked very hard to hone, and I would say they have made themselves into superb athletes.
Anyone who commits time and effort to climbing, and gets some kind of reward out of it, deserves respect.
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farmgirl
Nov 17, 2002, 5:31 PM
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Your wife sounds like she would lots of fun to climb with, do you guys live near colorado? The problems you mentioned also exist amongst the men...especially at the popular LA sport climbing crags. I wish these folks would try to keep things in perspective...it is, afterall, only rock climbing, not a solution to worldwide terrorism.
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olebetsy
Nov 17, 2002, 7:10 PM
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But climbing sure is a great way to take your mind off the problems of hte world, don't you think?
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farmgirl
Nov 17, 2002, 10:33 PM
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Yeah, but these folks seem relentless in their pursuit of unhappiness for themselves and everyone around them.
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stardust44
Nov 18, 2002, 1:01 AM
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All I can say about women like that is that they intimidate me soooo much. It would be really nice for a female in the gym who is older and better than me to actually be friendly and give me some tips. Unfortunately the really good women at my gym are generally unfriendly and I must say elitist or just involved in their own little crowd -- or at least this is the impression that I get. I would be helpful to get pointers from really good female climbers instead of boys around my age who don't climb with a style very similar to myself. That's just my opinion
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nikegirl
Nov 18, 2002, 3:19 AM
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I quote stardust*
"All I can say about women like that is that they intimidate me soooo much. It would be really nice for a female in the gym who is older and better than me to actually be friendly and give me some tips. Unfortunately the really good women at my gym are generally unfriendly and I must say elitist or just involved in their own little crowd -- or at least this is the impression that I get. I would be helpful to get pointers from really good female climbers instead of boys around my age who don't climb with a style very similar to myself"
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
The thing I have learned... I smile, at generally most women, and say "hi"
I am older, yes, than most. I also love to watch, and say what comes to mind, on compliments/beta. I find that I do get attitude, by some. Usually, Stardust, I know that the women, I get attitude from are there for different reasons than myself. I am there to climb. The attitudes I get are from the general girl/lookin for a climber attitude. Like I'm competition. So? I smile right to them, say HI...and move on.
I wish I could not feel the "tension" when I'm looked at...in passing or climbing. I'm nothing special. There are women who climb WAY harder/WAY more poetic than I. I love to get/talk to other women of all levels.
1.If you climb "Hard" (hard among your peers), do you find you have an attitude to match?
Let's see: I climb HARD! I also climb with others that climb HARD. But their HARD is 5.11d's...or better yet 5.9's. It's all relative...to their level, or mine. I enjoy it all...and enjoy watching, learning and giving and receiving beta.
2.What do you think of "elitist" women who think they are God's gift to the climbing world(which they are).
Pshaaaw...I just say HI. They are not any different than anyone else...(reminds me of the Too Fat to climb: any level you push yourself...be it 5.8 or 5.11's. ) It's all climbing (hard)
3.Do you think the stronger you climb, the more respect you deserve from your male counterparts and from other climbing ladies?
I'm not looking for respect. I'm there to get to where I feel I should be. Some days..I'm crankin it.
others, I SUCK! Great OUTDOORS...SUCK indoors...and visa versa.
babbling again...
stardust, I wish we could climb together.
~smile and say HI... and climb
T
[ This Message was edited by: nikegirl on 2002-11-17 19:21 ]
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ecocliffchick
Nov 18, 2002, 2:38 PM
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I've also run in to some elitist women at gyms, but most of the time I'm at those gyms for climbing competitions, so they might just see other women as competition. I really don't understand the need for their snobbery. I think we would all climb better if we could learn from one another rather than trying to intimidate one another.
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rockwomyn
Nov 18, 2002, 5:14 PM
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I agree with nikegirl....sometimes you just have to be the bigger person. I almost always say hello to people...men or women, in passing on the street, in line, in the woods and surely in the gym.....had i ever climbed in one! But all in all women are very competitive against one another...it is an evil thing our society has instilled in many of us. Insecurity and competetion between women...i mean all the catty s--- ya know. You just have to look beyond the superficial stuff on the outside and realize hey maybe if i say hello first it will help break down barriers...then allowing people to let their guard down and realize we are all in the same boat.
Human nature has always been a mystery to me.
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stardust44
Nov 20, 2002, 2:06 AM
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Thanks for saying that T...I understand what you mean exactly. I just think it would be nice to have some sort of older female climber to look up to. Oh, and climbing with you would be a lot fun!
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granite_grrl
Nov 24, 2002, 7:48 AM
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In Nova Scotia the climbing community is pretty small and for the most part I don't find there's much of that snobbery around. I do find that it's easier to be competative in teh gym, and too often I wind up gettign angry because I can't climb as hard as so-and-so, or I can't do that route that joe-blow just did and I thought I was better than him. All of this is my own fault and I have to put myself into check sometimes.
I prefer climbing outdoors anyways. When bouldering I don't know the grades of what I'm climbing, and I don't care. Routes don't bother me either, there's some steller 5.7's or 5.8's that I'd rather do then getting up a 5.10. Outside it's you and the rock, who cares about the grade.
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olebetsy
Nov 24, 2002, 7:06 PM
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Yesterday I took part in a big bouldering comp at Stone Gardens gym here in Seattle. I talked to so many great women, from age 11 on up, as we waited for our shot at problems. We exchanged beta, evaluated other climbers' aproaches to the problems, and got psyched up for our climbs. It was so much fun - and I feel incredibly fortunate to be able to compete at age 52. Of course, I didn't have anything riding on it, like the junior competitors or the super elite, but even
those young women were helpful to us older women. I hope you all can find a positive core of women -and/or men - to enhance your climbing experience. It can be pretty amazing, to have people cheering you on as you hang horizontally, 12 feet in the air!
Betsy
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missedyno
Nov 25, 2002, 5:28 PM
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LOL... i finally visited this thread. Haven't been on the site much lately and i thought this was about having a large head and getting helmets to fit. LOL... duhhhh
great topic! i've thought about this alot too. i think this may be a reason why i barely climb with girls. male or female, the better someone gets, their attitude may change, or may appear to change.
i was discussing this with my partner. he was put off by some people having a conversation that basically centred around "doing 14's" and things like that. he took it like they were bragging. later on he was saying that it'll be cool when we can both do 12's and go to a crag and climb so many routes.
i pointed out that whatever level you climb at is well, the level you'll climb. if i'm talking about climbing 10's to a beginner, i've had them say "well gee, 10's... i wish..." and i never thought that it could come out as spray. i just climb 10's, and i'm striving for more. same thing, if someone who climbs 12's talks about the climbs they did, of course it's going to be about 12's.
i agree with T on this one though, just say hi. there were a couple girls at the gym that i had applied some sort of attitude to just from judging (bad jessica!). i finally just said hi one day i mean, perhaps they think i'm a snotty b*tch too, what do i know?
i'd rather be friendly and harmless.
crap, i'm rambling. i'll go now. good thread though...
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ecocliffchick
Nov 25, 2002, 8:10 PM
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I've tried to be friendly to some of the "elite" women, and their snobbery just overwhelmed me. Perhaps if it was a one on one situation, but when there's three of them and one of you, it's very easy for them to turn away and talk amongst themselves - though I usually find it's the women that are great climbers and somewhat "intellectually-challenged" that are the snobs - kind of like back in highschool.
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gretchino
Apr 10, 2003, 9:05 PM
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I've actually had a hard time making women climbing friends. I am by no means a good climber. I try my best and am improving at a decent pace I think...
I would love some female companionship (not that my boyfriend is bad or boring - quite the contrary, he introduced me to the sport and has been a huge inspiration for me to learn faster and more), I just think it would be fun to have a girlfriend that I could climb with.
I've come across a few attitudes and become very intimdated very quickly...it's a shame, especially since these women are amazing climbers and I know I could learn a lot from them.
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emelia
Apr 10, 2003, 9:50 PM
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I agree..there are a lot of climbers out there, male and female, with an attitude....in the crags, in the gym, and out on the mountain. Now this might be totally off-side, but I know some dynamite female climbers who are not approachable because they are very shy. Now this might seem bizarre, but......I know I have been accused of being a snooty bitch, when in reality I am just mortified when someone approaches me to talk. I can yak a mile a minute on here, but get me in person and it's not pretty. Once ya know me...I'm fine...well ya still might not like me, but I won't have any problems communicating...it's those initial conversations. So keep that in mind as well.
As far as those who have really elitist attitudes....I say smack 'em upside the head and tell them to get a life.....
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wishiwaswest
Apr 10, 2003, 10:17 PM
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But Mel, you *are* a snooty, elitist bitch!
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rockzen
Apr 11, 2003, 4:09 AM
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Almost all of the people at my gym are great! :D Almost all of them are really easy going, and willing to help/show some pointers. Haven't met any snobs as of yet, and if I did, I didn't even notice them... :lol:
RockZen
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emelia
Apr 11, 2003, 12:53 PM
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In reply to: But Mel, you *are* a snooty, elitist bitch!
But you, my dear, are simply a bitch :lol:
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katydid
Apr 11, 2003, 1:16 PM
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Okay, folks, let's keep it on topic, please. ;)
Thanks,
k.
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