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reno
Apr 9, 2008, 2:33 PM
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A friend and I are planning a summer climbing trip to do the Italian Ridge (Carrel Route) of the Matterhorn and a secondary trip to Chamonix, and I am in search of answers to some questions. We plan to fly into Milan, spend a day or two enjoying the city, then taking a train to Cervinia. After a couple days to do the Carrel Route, we wish to head to Chamonix to climb Mont Blanc. From there we'd return to Milan, spend another day or two to explore before returning home.
My questions:
1. Is there a train from Milan to Cervinia?
2. What is the cost of that train ride?
3. How long will this train take?
4. Do you think it would be cheaper to rent an automobile?
5. Does anyone live in Milan, Cervinia, or Chamonix who would be willing to provide housing to two American climbers? We would be more than grateful, and would like to buy you dinner and drinks, as well as pay for our stay, in return for your kindness.
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reno
Apr 10, 2008, 11:02 PM
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Thanks for the links! I'll check 'em out.
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chrtur
Apr 15, 2008, 4:06 PM
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My questions:
1. Is there a train from Milan to Cervinia?
Not directly. But, for example, you can take one until Aosta and then continue by bus. I think even it is possible to go by bus all the way by some means, i.e. changing several ones.
2. What is the cost of that train ride?
See above.
3. How long will this train take?
By public transport calculate for one day.
4. Do you think it would be cheaper to rent an automobile?
Cheaper I do not think so? However, it depends how long you are planning on being around? It is much more comfortable to be able to move as you wish. Maybe the conditions do not permit climbing on Cervino and you have to go somewhere else?
5. Does anyone live in Milan, Cervinia, or Chamonix who would be willing to provide housing to two American climbers? We would be more than grateful, and would like to buy you dinner and drinks, as well as pay for our stay, in return for your kindness.
I live in Turin and I have some local knowledge which can be useful if you want to do some nice rock climbing in nice mountain settings outside the touristplace of Chamonix.
My point is that if you want to use the public transportations you will loose a lot of time if you want to go to both Chamonix and Cervinia. Milan is for sure not worth several days if you compare it with the mountains around torwards Mt. Blanc and the national park Gran Paradiso?
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reno
Apr 15, 2008, 11:21 PM
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chrtur wrote: I live in Turin and I have some local knowledge which can be useful if you want to do some nice rock climbing in nice mountain settings outside the touristplace of Chamonix. My point is that if you want to use the public transportations you will loose a lot of time if you want to go to both Chamonix and Cervinia. Milan is for sure not worth several days if you compare it with the mountains around torwards Mt. Blanc and the national park Gran Paradiso?
Thank you, chrtur, for your reply. I may have more questions as the trip draws closer. If I do, I'll be sure to call upon you.
I am in your debt. Thank you again!
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reno
Apr 17, 2008, 10:34 PM
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A follow up question, if I may:
Not having much luck with web searching for a comparison, so I'd like to ask this group:
Is there some comparison or idea how to interpret the grades of certain climbs?
For example, I read here: http://www.summitpost.org/...0245/mont-blanc.html that the Innominata Ridge on Mont Blanc is graded "D+"
How does that "D+" difficulty translate to, say, the YDS or Water Ice grading scales?
I just don't want to set my sights on a route far beyond my abilities.
And again, my thanks.
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chrtur
Apr 18, 2008, 9:13 AM
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D is a type of serious grade (F,AD,PD,D,TD,ED,ABO) and can not be directly translated to a technical grade. Still, sometimes it is still used as a benchmark for the technical level in some way.
If you are looking for routes around Mt. Blanc the serious impact factor can mean a lot..... For example the Innominata Ridge is something around D as is also the north face of Tour Ronde, but they are in two different leagues so to say 
I do not know your cllmbing experience and I always try to keep away saying what people should or should not do on internet forums. But, the Innominata Ridge would be a very nice to climb up the top, still a serious undertaking if you are not familiar with that area of the mountain. In principle all the serious routes up to Mt. Blanc are in that area
Here is a photo of the area I took last year:
(This post was edited by chrtur on Apr 18, 2008, 9:14 AM)
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uasunflower
Apr 18, 2008, 1:12 PM
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Hey, my 2 cents - in french guidebooks (i.e. Damilano's ice and snow 2 volumes for Cham) you will find the usual mountaineering rating from F to ABO, that grades technical difficulty of the undertaking, ice, rock or snow. So F or PD is like easy scrambling, AD starts to get some 5.3 climbing or easy ice, D is getting closer to the matter with 5.7 5.8 stuff, and TD and over is in your 5.10 range and 4-5 ice. In good guidebooks, in addition to the overall F-ABO rating, you will find specific grades for rock and/or ice on French scale for rock and 2 3 4 5 6 etc for ice...As chtur said, the F-ABO rating doesnt take engagement into consideration, you might have rather engaged Ds with difficult retreat (Brenva etc. side of Mont Blanc), or TDs i.e. on S face of Aiguille du Midi where two rappels bring you to safety in no time...
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adnix
Apr 19, 2008, 8:10 AM
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reno wrote: 4. Do you think it would be cheaper to rent an automobile?
The expenses with trains and cars will be roughly the same for this kind of trip. From your schedule it looks like your trip is two weeks or less and for this kind of shortish trip I would definitely rent a car. It will be way more convenient plus you'll have activities for rain days.
reno wrote: 1. Is there a train from Milan to Cervinia?
You can search connectios for example with http://www.sbb.ch and http://www.trenitalia.com/en/index.html. I did a fast search and it looks like it's 5 hours from Milan to Zermatt, Swiss and 8 hours from Milan to Cervino, Italy.
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adnix
Apr 19, 2008, 8:35 AM
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D+ translates to techical difficulties of short sections of WI4 on ice and short sections of 5.8 on rock. With a big pack and a big runout, of course.
According to the guidebook the route takes 8-11 hours from the Eccles bivy to the top. Technically it doesn't seem that hard but you'll have to remember its at least two days of exposed glaciers before getting to the Eccless from Courmayer and one day of exposed glaciers down from the top. You'll need stable weather for all of this 4 day period for climbing the route.
If you consider this route you should be very well acclimatized and fit enough to keep it going 12 hours a day for 4 days. In addition you'll need stable weather and you must pack light.
If you have only two weeks I would perhaps recommend considering the 3 peaks route up to Mont Blanc (Midi, Tacul, Maudit, mt. Blanc).
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reno
Apr 19, 2008, 8:24 PM
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Adnix:
Which guide book gave this information? I'd be interested in buying it.
Thanks again to everyone for the information.
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marde
Apr 19, 2008, 8:47 PM
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snow, ice and mixed, volume II
written by Francois Damilano JMEditions
available in english and french an pretty new
contains a lot of really, really precise photos of the mountains walls and routes.
The only thing it lacks is ultra precise information for the easier routes and it does not describe any pure rock climbs.
The only other one (in english) I know of is
MONT BLANC MASSIF - VOL I by L.Griffin
contains rock and ice climbs
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adnix
Apr 20, 2008, 6:52 AM
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reno wrote: Which guide book gave this information? I'd be interested in buying it.
The info came out of my head but it is also on most guidebooks covering Chamonix. If you want something that focuses on Mont Blanc, I would recommend Damilano's Five Routes book. If you're looking for some motivation and overall comprehension of the climbing in Chamonix I would go for Rebuffat's 100 Routes. And If you're just interested in ticking some 4000s I would go for the Goedeke.
Damilano's:
http://store.everestgear.com/mge037.html
Rebuffat's:
http://www.amazon.com/...Routes/dp/0898864771
Goedeke's:
http://www.amazon.com/...ref=pd_sim_b_title_2
The more specific books would be the three books by Michel Piola covering most of the summer rock climbs, the two books by Damilano covering the winter snow, ice & mixed climbs and the two Alpine Club books which cover it all but are hard to comprehend if you haven't been around for a season or two.
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adnix
Apr 20, 2008, 7:03 AM
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Forgot to make a clear recommendation:
Buy the Rebuffat or the Goedeke or both. There's a new edition of the Goedeke which came out in 2003 or so.
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reno
May 17, 2008, 2:19 PM
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Two more questions, if I may:
1. How much will a bus or train cost from Cervinia to Chamonix? I can't seem to find this in my web searching.
2. Suggested lodging in Chamonix? I know of a couple dormitories/hostels, but wondered if anyone had personal experience/recommendations to share.
Thanks, everyone.
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reno
May 19, 2008, 10:17 PM
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OK, since I don't speak French beyond "May I have another glass of wine?" and "You have very nice breasts, may I fondle them?", is this the rates/prices page:
http://www.gite-chamonix.com/pages/page_4pag.html
I'm willing to do damn near anything for good food!
Thanks, Booger, for the links (Merci!). I appreciate it!
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piton
May 20, 2008, 4:59 PM
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have you looked into the Haute route from Zermont to Chamonix. 5 days hiking stay in hautes along the way
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adnix
May 23, 2008, 9:03 AM
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In reply to: 1. How much will a bus or train cost from Cervinia to Chamonix? I can't seem to find this in my web searching.
www.sbb.ch - they don't give international prices but it's 74CHF from Zermatt to the border and few euros more to Chamonix. In total about 55€/person.
In reply to: 2. Suggested lodging in Chamonix? I know of a couple dormitories/hostels, but wondered if anyone had personal experience/recommendations to share.
The most affordable accommondations are Chalet Ski Station and Gite le Vagabond. The last time I visited them the first one had 10 people dorms at 13€/person/night and the latter 4 people rooms at 14€/person/night + sheets 4€. Both have option for storing goods while you're on the mountains.
http://www.gitevagabond.com
http://www.chamonix.com/...;cate=65&ling=en
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booger
May 29, 2008, 2:50 PM
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Yes! Well done, It's the rates page:
Nuit 13.50€ = to spend the night (remember, this will be communal bedroom, and locker-room showers in a place like this, but the atmosphere is much more relaxed and fun than it would be in the US - and you'll meet loads of climbers, of course)
Petit-Déjeuner 7.50€ = price of breakfast. 
Ehm... you may also want to learn "Sorry officer" and "That's most certainly not mine!"... 
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reno
Jul 8, 2008, 12:29 AM
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OK, last question, I promise!
Weather checks in/around Cervinia and Zermatt make me think the Matterhorn is not going to be in climbable condition this weekend. We're arriving Milan on Wednesday, and planned the Matterhorn on Saturday or Sunday.
I need alternatives. Long, alpine routes are preferred. Long traditional/gear routes are second choice. Sport routes/bolts are last resort.
We will have a car, so travel isn't much of a concern. Having no knowledge of the areas, I think grades of VI+ or lower would be best.
And, as before, I extend my thanks. Y'all have been a great help, and I am indebted to you. (Oh, and if anyone is going to be in Chamonix next week, let me know... we should meet for drinks.)
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Eskil
Jul 14, 2008, 8:47 AM
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About accommodation in Chamonix for climbing Mt. Blanc. I can offer you to rent an apartment for 60€ per night if you're just staying for a few days.
Most people here live in pretty small apartments, so it is usually tight to fit guests...
If you're looking for a guide to take you to Mt. Blanc, I recommend you the mountain guides at http://www.mountainspirit.info, very passionate mountaineers and on their courses you learn a lot!
If interested in an apartment please contact me on toptjej@gmail.com
Good luck!
/Eva
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