healyje wrote:
elvislegs wrote:
it just seems weird to me that some climbers treat the old "trad" ethic like it's some sort of moral imperative.
In reply to:
I'd say it's more of a health imperative and one of a very real distinction between different activities that, when blurred, tends to cause people to underestimate the objective risks posed and the necessary craft and skills one might want to develop to climb on gear in a 'safe' and effective manner.
Actually, it's the fact that the climber wants to be safe that makes this activity so popular. Preplacing gear or working a route piece to piece with someone pushing themselves and limiting their personal risk. I would trust the gear placement of someone working a route a lot more then the gear placement of someone who never fals or hangs on their gear. One sends the message that I trust my placement with my life, the other send the message that I trust myself not to fall.
In reply to:
i disagree, in my experience this argument usually centers around salty old dogs feeling obsolete and angry about the shortening of the "trad" learning curve. present company excluded perhaps?
i'm sure it sucks for them to see someone dogging and then redpointing routes that fifteen years ago were testpieces, only the seasoned hardman would even attempt. i'm sure it makes it worse if you feel that the kid doing the dogging has no respect or sense of history.
In reply to:
I could care less how folks choose to climb, but plugging gear to explicitly rest on it and repeatedly working a move off of a placement without checking it each time it is unweighted are very bad habits which are increasingly biting folks hard. And as I said, aside from the safety aspects of it, you aren't trad climbing - you're sport climbing on gear regardless of what you tell yourself.
Not sport climbing. Sport climbing is climbing on bolts protected routes. these routes have bolts placed in a manner that helps eliminate any anxiety while leading so you can concentrate on the moves. I do agree they are not onsighting the route, but they are pushing themsleves, learning new moves, and enjoying the process. This is what climbing is for them. Top climbers don't climb the worlds hardest route by climbing routes they never fall on. Falling and hanging is part of climbing.
Not all bolted routes are sport routes. If you think so, go check out the Apron or Stone MOuntain, maybe even Toulume Meadows.
People were hang dogging routes long before sport routes came to be. Ray Jardine is a good example, but have alook at the history of climbing and you'll see that people were aiding routes to set up top=ropes, working moves out on lead, and hang dogging routes when they Aid to free revolution was taking place. People have been working the "Nose" of Elcap for years. Liquid Sky at Cathedral was worked so hard and long on the first ascent, that the climber hung a make shift porta-ledge for the belayer.
All of these routes, and many more, were worked on gear long before sport climbing hit America roughly in the mid eighties at Smith.
elvislegs wrote:
if some are indeed concerned about this as a safety issue. well, i'll grant you that working gear routes on lead is not as safe as top-roping them into oblivion, or climbing well below your limit on gear. but limiting risk is not the only component of climbing. if it were, we'd all just top-rope forever or not climb at all.
In reply to:
You miss the point entirely - sport climbing on gear is essentially an unsafe and inappropriate use of the equipment. The majority of folks might get away it a majority of the time, but the accident rate from doing it is increasing rapidly of late.
I think you're missing the point, the gear is safe when used and placed correctly.
Believe it or not, the gear is actually design to hold when you fall on it. If it didn't hold, or if I didn't trust gear enough to fall on it, why would I buy it.
Placing gear takes energy, that energy could be used to climb is I wasn't stopping to place the gear. the reason I use the energy to place gear is so when i fall, it keeps me safe. I don't head-point much, but I have, and I don't consider head pointing the same as sport climbing.
By the way, bolts fail too. I personally trust gear that I place more then bolts placed by someone I don't know. I definately take whips on my well placed #11 Hex more easily than on some of the bolts I clipped across the country or around the world.
I could even argue that climbing on preplaced gear is safer than sport climbing because I know my placements are good, I can't be sure about the bolts I clip. Except for the ones I placed myself that is.
elvislegs wrote:
we pay all this money for gear that is supposed to hold us if placed properly, and we're not going to fall or rest on it? no way, i know how to use it, i'm not careless but i am going to USE it. i'll work hard(ish) cracks on lead, i'll fall and hang, i'll come back later and get it clean, and i'll probably call it trad climbing if i call it anything at all.
In reply to:
No one is saying don't fall on your gear, but there are very real safety issues with plugging gear to rest and attempting to apply sport tactics to climbing on gear; again, it's simply a bad idea. Once again, regardless of your financial investment, cams and nuts aren't bolts - treat them like bolts at your peril, because you'll likely get bitten by it sooner or later.
What real safety issues. Can you be specific please?
I don't see any issues involved unless the gear is placed incorrectly. it sounds like you don't trust you gear placement enough to be comfortable falling. it's not uncommon. I see it often, climber who fall on bolts, but refuse to fall on gear. What this really means is that the climber is scared of falling on gear.
By the way, hang dogging isn't a sport tatic. It's a climbing tactic. I know many sport climbers who don't work routes and avoid falling at all cost even on well protected sport routes. It's amind set. I place gear so that I can fall. In some case, I work routes on gear. My hardest trad first ascent I couldn't get on the first try. I ended up leading it placement to placement. i put in two belay bolts and lowered. Once on the ground, I top roped it and still couldn't do the move all at once.
Those who climb with me know, I climb better when I am leading then when I am top-roping. So, on the way down, I placed the first two pieces. The moves were hard for me and I didn't want to have to worry about hiting the ground. I then pulled the rope and started up again.
The following weekend, aided up the 20 feet and put in the first solid piece aain. Came down and shot for the ascent. i repaeated this over the course of four climbing days before I got the first ascent. maybe 30 attempts, the first dozen piece to piece. the route has seen two toher ascents in six years, not one onsight. It's not even that hard, just a 5.12b/c finger crack.
Climbing piece to piece and hangdogging on gear is safe if the climber knows how to place gear correctly.
(This post was edited by guangzhou on May 1, 2008, 3:37 AM)
